Why can't female villains be taken seriously?

[mathew101281]

Who fits that other than Granny Goodness?

Also People putting Killer Frost up there on the list, To me She was super sympathetic because she was basically a Super-powered Addict who had to get the next hit to keep her sanity. She went long times before showing up again alot of the time and usually only targeted fire-type heroes to steal their heat to feed the hunger. It was almost certain that she would go straight if she ever got a handle on how to lower her consumption so she doesn't kill people who aren't super powered.

Poison Ivy is like Swamp thing in that you really can't put traditional morality on them because Swampy will do what ever the **** he feels like when defending the green and Poison Ivy basically his second in command when it comes to powers. She doesn't agree with him sitting alot of stuff out so she is the more proactive agent of the green, killing polluters and people who wreck the green. Also Poison Ivy has grown more sympathetic to people because her cause of saving the world is more main stream nowadays and she also is fairly nice to most people as long as you don't **** with Harley or anger her.

Talia Al-Ghul is a monster who may love batman in her own twisted way and loves her son in her own twisted way. She is basically Circe Lannister of the comicbook world, just smarter over all version of her. She is a awful person who has sympathetic moments.

Also Can we talk about How almost all The Main batfamily men have been raped by female villians across the Dc universe. We know of atleast twice Bruce has been raped, Dick Grayson got raped a few times and then his rapist kept trying to tag along like nothing happened even though dick was avoiding her like the plague. Jason was implied to have had terrible things happen to him when he was younger on the street and Tim has had a few close calls with females that almost ended with him tied down in a dungeon with no pants on.

I fully expect when Damian gets older some female villian is going to concuss him too and just rape him on the rooftop like what happened to Dick Grayson.

This goes back to my notion that sexuality is almost always seen as the primary weapon of the female villain. And how it really undercuts them because it’s playing to an oddly specifuc fetish rather then making them threatening. Compare how those female villains are depicted compared to how the Purple Man is depicted.

[Osiris-Rex]

This goes back to my notion that sexuality is almost always seen as the primary weapon of the female villain. And how it really undercuts them because it’s playing to an oddly specifuc fetish rather then making them threatening.

Dominatrix fantasies?

[Bigwinnie101]

This goes back to my notion that sexuality is almost always seen as the primary weapon of the female villain. And how it really undercuts them because it’s playing to an oddly specifuc fetish rather then making them threatening. Compare how those female villains are depicted compared to how the Purple Man is depicted.

Oh no bruce is drugged by Talia and while he still has feelings for her, the whole thing is tainted by the fact that she drugged him up so she could have his child. Bruce and Talia have never gotten back to anywhere close to where they used to be because of that. The main reason Bruce even tolerated her is because She is the Mother of his Son.

Dicks rape scene wasn't sexy at all. He was concussed and drowsy and the mercenary girl just gives him a quick handy to get him hard and rides him as he dizzily tries to figure out whats going on.

[Bigwinnie101]

Dominatrix fantasies?

Hey hey. Bruce and selina are made for each other, super kinky people who like to punch each other and break a room with rough sex. They are just weird and are going to need better sound proofing because I doubt Damian looks forward to hearing the two of them go at it like two rhino in a china shop when they get excited.

[Barbatos666]

Don't a lot of the male villains also look ugly and abnormal? Joker, Doomsday, King Shark, Penguin, Darkseid, Gorilla Grodd aren't going to win any beauty contests.
I think the message in general being sent is if you are ugly and deformed you are evil and if you are pretty/handsome and fit you are good.

True but there are tons of villains who're perfectly normal looking. Deathstroke, Luthor, Ra's,Riddler, Rogues, all Reverse Flashes, Zod, Bane.
The message I'm getting is that if the female villain is sexy she must be reformed.
Ofcourse I've noticed that reasonably attractive villains like Slade, Lex and Bane have also been good guys. Go figure lol.

[Bigwinnie101]

True but there are tons of villains who're perfectly normal looking. Deathstroke, Luthor, Ra's,Riddler, Rogues, all Reverse Flashes, Zod, Bane.
The message I'm getting is that if the female villain is sexy she must be reformed.
Ofcourse I've noticed that reasonably attractive villains like Slade, Lex and Bane have also been good guys. Go figure lol.

Basically the rule is that if they are fuckable than its a 50/50 shot of getting a Anti-hero twist

[Barbatos666]

There are some exceptions though. Joker is considered attractive both in and out of universe. Mr Freeze once said that Joker gets a lot of marriage proposal mail.

[Agent Z]

Except Magneto had been a major villain before being turned into a hero. He had time to do a bunch of evil plots and writer had used his potential, this was improving the character and allowing him to touch new scales.

Okay, why can’t the same be said about Ivy or any female villain as a hero? Especially if they somewhat sympathetic motives like Magneto?

The thing is that for a female villain to go big ( meaning every comic book fans should be able to tell you who she is just by hearing the name ) and stay full evil is pretty rare, especially when as soon as they are iconic, they aren't used as villains so much anymore

That is true but it’s on the writers to change this.

As for creating female villains, most writers are male writing for male characters. Unless it is a effort, they won't write women characters. It is a vicious cycle. Woman villain gets created, people love her because women characters aren't that many, she gets turned into a anti-hero to appeal to more and you no longer have a A-villain.

I agree with this but as I said that’s an issue the writers need to solve.

The character I have in my avatar shows that. She may be a woman but the only reason she is one is because the storyline called for a traitor and people have more sympathy for women

What?

She's not that popular much like a lot of female villains at Marvel. Known to those who look into the universe for sure but not enough so people who follow Marvel from far away know who she is

Um, she was recently in a movie. She’s pretty popular right now.

Well, the last Rebrith portrayed her in a more heroic than villainous light

She was still a villain at the end. She just had more sympathy in her background.

Because everything in her is made for a villain. Her powers include poisonning people, it's in her name and that's not what heroes do.

Says who?

Things like caring about children works as a villain because it adds depth to her but as a hero ? No big deal, they all want to save children. And then, her heroic actions are only for plants ( or women being abused ) which can get boring fast when as a villain, she can at least be either someone with right motivations but bad actions or just a crazy one who is totally wrong, she can fight strong heroes like Superman or fight street heroes like Batman. She have range as a villain which she does not as a hero.

If she’s a hero, she’ll be doing more than saving plants. Aquaman doesn’t just protect the seas so why would a heroic Ivy only protect plants?

And she's been a hero since the New 52 started. The last Batman issues are one of the few issues in the last 5 years that have her as a full blown threat who have to be stopped at any cost. That's pretty long

She wasn’t a hero in the New 52 Birds of Prey. i also recall her being a hero in the New 52 Detective Comics.

[Nyssane]

True but there are tons of villains who're perfectly normal looking. Deathstroke, Luthor, Ra's,Riddler, Rogues, all Reverse Flashes, Zod, Bane.
The message I'm getting is that if the female villain is sexy she must be reformed.
Ofcourse I've noticed that reasonably attractive villains like Slade, Lex and Bane have also been good guys. Go figure lol.

There are tons of female villains who are "sexy" who haven't been reformed, they're just used less which is one of the main reasons of this thread.

As for conventionally unattractive female villains, how many can you even name? There's the aforementioned Granny Goodness and Stompa (who is occasionally drawn hot), plus Bernadeth, Mad Harriet (sometimes), Orca, uh.... that's about it.

[Punisher007]

Because the Big Two don't put in the same kind of time/effort/consistency to build them up as big time threats as they do male villains. Sure every so often a particular writer will TRY, but then other writers undercut that. For example, Geoff Johns tries to build up Cheetah as a major threat to the JL, only to have another writer (I forget exactly who sorry) job her out to Green Arrow alone not long afterwards.

[Sutekh]

One aspect I've noticed is that lady villains seem more redeemable because they seem more likely to not be in control of whatever makes them a villain. Killer Frost is kind of a victim of her powers, forced to 'feed' by draining heat from people. Icicle is just a nasty dude with ice powers.

Obviously I'm cherry-picking there, because I could as easily have named Captain Cold (who has also been partially redeemed, or at least made 'less bad'), or Mr. Freeze, who also is a bit of a victim of circumstances, trapped in his cryo-suit and feeling like he was (at least initially) forced into a life of crime (although that excuse hasn't been valid for years).

But it seems like the 'bad girls' are more likely to be able to be 'saved' from their circumstances by the manly hero man, while the 'bad boys' just get face-punched and thrown into the strangely-ineffective prisons they have in the comic book universe. Truly irredeemable or 'monstrous' or inhuman figures, like Chemo or Darkseid or Solomon Grundy or Validus, tend to be male.

I doubt that there's any one deciding factor to the trend.

For instance, there is a (false, IMO) perception that there aren't enough female heroes to go around, so that when a new team is being formed, brand new women like Halo and Katana or Raven and Starfire are invented on the spot, while pre-existing female characters that could have taken on those roles (such as Lilith and Bumblebee as 'all-new Titans' in the Wolfman/Perez launch, back in the day, alongside pre-existing male characters like Wally, Dick and Garfield) tend to get sidelined and forgotten.

In other cases, this perception leads to villains like Catwoman and Killer Frost joining League teams, when there are *dozens* of heroic women like Hawkwoman, Vixen, Black Canary, Fire and Ice, etc. or lesser-seen ladies like Nightshade, Black Orchid, Firehawk, Bulletgirl, etc. who could have stepped up.

I feel like any 'fix' to this would be A) more use of female heroes, so that female villains don't 'need' to be 'saved' or 'redeemed' to occupy those roles in stories and on teams, B) more complicated female villains, some of whom *can't* be 'saved' by the manly love of the manly man-hero (or, more importantly, don't *want* to be 'saved,' and are just as secure in their villainy as male villains).

Some role-reversal might also be amusing, if done well. Some long-term villain dude developing a crush on Wonder Woman or Black Canary or Zatanna and choosing to turn over a new leaf for her (and not getting it creepily wrong...) could be funny, and flip the head on the 'lady villain falls for Bat-dude and changes her wicked ways' script.

[Agent Z]

One aspect I've noticed is that lady villains seem more redeemable because they seem more likely to not be in control of whatever makes them a villain. Killer Frost is kind of a victim of her powers, forced to 'feed' by draining heat from people. Icicle is just a nasty dude with ice powers.

Obviously I'm cherry-picking there, because I could as easily have named Captain Cold (who has also been partially redeemed, or at least made 'less bad'), or Mr. Freeze, who also is a bit of a victim of circumstances, trapped in his cryo-suit and feeling like he was (at least initially) forced into a life of crime (although that excuse hasn't been valid for years).

But it seems like the 'bad girls' are more likely to be able to be 'saved' from their circumstances by the manly hero man, while the 'bad boys' just get face-punched and thrown into the strangely-ineffective prisons they have in the comic book universe. Truly irredeemable or 'monstrous' or inhuman figures, like Chemo or Darkseid or Solomon Grundy or Validus, tend to be male.

I doubt that there's any one deciding factor to the trend.

For instance, there is a (false, IMO) perception that there aren't enough female heroes to go around, so that when a new team is being formed, brand new women like Halo and Katana or Raven and Starfire are invented on the spot, while pre-existing female characters that could have taken on those roles (such as Lilith and Bumblebee as 'all-new Titans' in the Wolfman/Perez launch, back in the day, alongside pre-existing male characters like Wally, Dick and Garfield) tend to get sidelined and forgotten.

In other cases, this perception leads to villains like Catwoman and Killer Frost joining League teams, when there are *dozens* of heroic women like Hawkwoman, Vixen, Black Canary, Fire and Ice, etc. or lesser-seen ladies like Nightshade, Black Orchid, Firehawk, Bulletgirl, etc. who could have stepped up.

I feel like any 'fix' to this would be A) more use of female heroes, so that female villains don't 'need' to be 'saved' or 'redeemed' to occupy those roles in stories and on teams, B) more complicated female villains, some of whom *can't* be 'saved' by the manly love of the manly man-hero (or, more importantly, don't *want* to be 'saved,' and are just as secure in their villainy as male villains).

Some role-reversal might also be amusing, if done well. Some long-term villain dude developing a crush on Wonder Woman or Black Canary or Zatanna and choosing to turn over a new leaf for her (and not getting it creepily wrong...) could be funny, and flip the head on the 'lady villain falls for Bat-dude and changes her wicked ways' script.

Neither interpretation is a good idea. Using either just reinforces that superhero stories do not know how to do romance.

Also, male characters get replaced all the time. Cyborg and Jericho were created for the New Teen Titans.

[Punisher007]

Killer Frost is a bit unusual in that it's a new version of the character (there've been several other versions/women who've had that title). And this version was set up to be more sympathetic pretty much from the beginning.

[Heavunion]

Okay, why can’t the same be said about Ivy or any female villain as a hero? Especially if they somewhat sympathetic motives like Magneto?

Because everyone knows Magneto, he is one of the most famoous villains of Marvel, even if he is not a villain, he won't dissapear because of his rich history and even if he did, he can be brought back as a villain anytime because he's that popular

Poison Ivy doesn't have that. She might be the most popular female villain but in the overall DC Universe, she's nothing. If she's a hero, she's not someone writers will often put in books because outside of her relationship to plants ( and even then, they could be more willing to use Swamp Thing ) or Harley, she doesn't have that much going for her when as a villain, she already have more uses and can actually be put in stories against heroes if they need to face a woman

What?

What I tried to explain is that men who write will always write women in situations they want. It's just natural, you write characters you have a easiest time relating to and that's why women villains are so rare. Because men aren't going to, on instinct, write stories where women are beating up men by themselves. Women, when being created, are type-casted

Um, she was recently in a movie. She’s pretty popular right now.

Whiplash was in a movie, doesn't mean everyone ask for his stories. MCU movies don't make villains popular, even popular villains like Zemo or Red Skull didn't became mainstream icons like The Joker or Lex Luthor after their appearences in movies

She was still a villain at the end. She just had more sympathy in her background.

Yep, at the end and while it's great for the future, I would've rather Rucka does a epic story with Cheetah to show everyone why she is a great villain rather than spent the whole story showing how great of a character she is. He basically did a BTAS Mr.Freeze on Cheetah except well, even if Mr.Freeze is well regarded, he's not remembered as the big Batman villain which Cheetah is supposed to be. He did great at making a tragic character, less at making a good actual villain

If she’s a hero, she’ll be doing more than saving plants. Aquaman doesn’t just protect the seas so why would a heroic Ivy only protect plants?

Except Aquaman is the son of two worlds. He doesn't just protect the seas because he is as much linked to our world than he is to Atlantis and furthermore, he was created to be a hero. Poison Ivy was created to be a villain and unlike Aquaman, she isn't protecting two worlds. She's a human who rejected that side to go with the plants.

If we had to compare, it should be to Lex Luthor who had a similar evolution from villain to hero with a way bigger intent on being a big character and turning him into a full blown hero wasn't something I liked either. Showed that he was much better and interesting as a villain

She wasn’t a hero in the New 52 Birds of Prey. i also recall her being a hero in the New 52 Detective Comics.

She then became more of a anti-hero in Birds of Prey and even had her own mini-serie where she was the main hero.

[Agent Z]

Because everyone knows Magneto, he is one of the most famoous villains of Marvel, even if he is not a villain, he won't dissapear because of his rich history and even if he did, he can be brought back as a villain anytime because he's that popular

Poison Ivy doesn't have that. She might be the most popular female villain but in the overall DC Universe, she's nothing. If she's a hero, she's not someone writers will often put in books because outside of her relationship to plants ( and even then, they could be more willing to use Swamp Thing ) or Harley, she doesn't have that much going for her when as a villain, she already have more uses and can actually be put in stories against heroes if they need to face a woman

Replace with plants with mutant and I could say the same of Magneto. Ivy isn’t nothing. She’s one of the most famous Batman villain. They wouldn’t be considering making a movie about her if she weren’t and it isn’t like Swamp Thin gets much use anyway. Harley and Ivy have also been marketed as a package deal.

What I tried to explain is that men who write will always write women in situations they want. It's just natural, you write characters you have a easiest time relating to and that's why women villains are so rare. Because men aren't going to, on instinct, write stories where women are beating up men by themselves. Women, when being created, are type-casted

Okay this I can agree with.

Whiplash was in a movie, doesn't mean everyone ask for his stories. MCU movies don't make villains popular, even popular villains like Zemo or Red Skull didn't became mainstream icons like The Joker or Lex Luthor after their appearences in movies

Whiplash was in poorly received movie and a throwaway villain. Hela was not.

Yep, at the end and while it's great for the future, I would've rather Rucka does an epic story with Cheetah to show everyone why she is a great villain rather than spent the whole story showing how great of a character she is. He basically did a BTAS Mr.Freeze on Cheetah except well, even if Mr.Freeze is well regarded, he's not remembered as the big Batman villain which Cheetah is supposed to be. He did great at making a tragic character, less at making a good actual villain

Cheetah has never worked as a big WW villain. Her popularity comes from being one of three WW villains that appear the most in DC media (the other two being Circe and Ares who are far more worthy of being heavy antagonists than Cheetah is). Being a good villain does not always mean being a major antagonist. If it did, Grail would be considered a good villain but she isn’t.

Except Aquaman is the son of two worlds. He doesn't just protect the seas because he is as much linked to our world than he is to Atlantis and furthermore, he was created to be a hero. Poison Ivy was created to be a villain and unlike Aquaman, she isn't protecting two worlds. She's a human who rejected that side to go with the plants.

Ivy has human connections like Harley and the children she’s protected.

She then became more of a anti-hero in Birds of Prey and even had her own mini-serie where she was the main hero.

The recent BoP was her most heroic. She was a villain protagonist at best in her mini.