Why can't female villains be taken seriously?

[Nyssane]

This preview for Wonder Woman #41 shows the Female Furies, some of the deadliest women in the galaxy, getting defeated by a handful of human soldiers. That got me thinking... why can't female villains be taken seriously in comic book lore?

The Furies are literal gods from Apokolips, considered Darkseid's elite, and have been semi-successful in their 40-ish year comic history for the most part. In animation, they've been even more successful, defeating both Superman and Supergirl in their first appearance on Superman: TAS, as well as having one of the best animated battles with Wonder Woman and Big Barda in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse. Yet, three of them were defeated single-handedly by Lois Lane after being depicted as staunch feminazis in the recent Superman arc, and now five of them were decimated by Steve Trevor and his merry men which resulted in Lashina and Mad Harriet being captured.

And this isn't limited to just the Furies. Cheetah is one of Wonder Woman's top villains yet has been cursed with unforgivable depictions getting defeated by Batman, Catwoman, and Green Arrow (to name a few), despite being empowered by a god in ways similar to Diana herself.

DC's biggest female villains (Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy) have all crossed over to being antiheroes or just straight up heroes. Killer Frost, while not a huge name at DC, also recently crossed over to antihero.

When there's a big crossover event, rarely does a female villain shine. Circe is the closest thing to a global-scale villainess that could stand with Brainiac or Darkseid, but she's rarely used outside of the Wonder Woman comics and has also faced a number of embarrassing defeats (usually by Batman of course).

Marvel has virtually no A-List female villains, so there's also that. I guess Hela's popularity/awareness is rising, but it hasn't really been reflected in the comics.

So, what I'm getting at...

• Are female villains treated differently from male ones?
• Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?
• Why are female villains often relegated to femme fatale roles of lesser importance?
• What female villains do you think could be elevated to a higher standing in the DC Universe?

[Barbatos666]

I think that Superman/Batman film was rubbish because it utterly neutered Darkseid. New Gods in general suffer from rubbish writing. But I'll take powerful Darkseid with weak Furies over vice versa.

Talia al Ghul from Morrison's run is arguably the most dangerous Batman villain. I cant exactly blame writers for the face turns of the Sirens when there's a brigade of entitled fans pestering writers every hour to make Ivy a hero and using politics to make their points.
Talia fans are just vicious, their hate for Morrison is alarming.

Brubaker tried with Sin on Captain America though.

I attribute the femme fatale roles to the predominant male gaze. The lack of dangerous/powerful I attribute to politics.
Maxima was/is outrageously powerful but using her character like she was intended to be will result in crucifuxion from the Liberal media. They even tried to make her Lesbian which was just laughable. An in character Maxima would be an extreme homophobe. But ofcourse we cant have that. So Maxima is over as a result.

[Assam]

Yeah, this is definitely an issue.

[*]Are female villains treated differently from male ones?

Female characters in general receive worse treatment on the whole.

[*]Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?

Likely because of unintentional but still present sexism in writers, they feel that a larger than life, domineering figure to be feared by all is a role best played by a man.

Why are female villains often relegated to femme fatale roles of lesser importance?

This

I attribute the femme fatale roles to the predominant male gaze.

What female villains do you think could be elevated to a higher standing in the DC Universe?

While obviously I'd want my favorites (Scandal, Knockout and Jeannette) to be the ones to get more use in general, as far as villains who I could see being elevated to being larger threats to the DCU? There really aren't many choices, but maybe Blackfire?

New Gods in general suffer from rubbish writing.

I haven't read any of the recent New Gods one-shots, but did any of them actually remember the POINT of them that DC has seemingly long forgotten?

Maxima was/is outrageously powerful but using her character like she was intended to be will result in crucifuxion from the Liberal media. They even tried to make her Lesbian which was just laughable. An in character Maxima would be an extreme homophobe. But ofcourse we cant have that. So Maxima is over as a result.

Don't agree with this at all and I actually enjoyed her role in Superwoman.

[Barbatos666]

Sure but the real Maxima can easily be Superman's Ra's al Ghul instead of being a reject in Supergirl and other lesser books.

[Nomads1]

In the boring days we live, if you try to write a real bad ass villainess you end up being accused of sexism and other isms.

That said, I'm total in favor of more female villains. Circe and Lady Shiva are two who come to mind that have real potential, but seem to be seldom used.

Over at Marvel, Superia is the only major player that comes to mind, and her motivations as a female supremacist tend to be used in, quite frankly, ridiculous ways.

I liked Maxima as a villiain, but i also liked her a lot as a hero too.

Peace

[Agent Z]

In the boring days we live, if you try to write a real bad ass villainess you end up being accused of sexism and other isms.

That said, I'm total in favor of more female villains. Circe and Lady Shiva are two who come to mind that have real potential, but seem to be seldom used.

Over at Marvel, Superia is the only major player that comes to mind, and her motivations as a female supremacist tend to be used in, quite frankly, ridiculous ways.

I liked Maxima as a villiain, but i also liked her a lot as a hero too.

Peace

Yeah remember all the backlash Hela from Ragnarok got?

[HandofPrometheus]

Don't know, but I've been having less enjoyment with female villains. Poison Ivy is in the verge of losing it all just so she can be good and be with Harley, DC ruined Maxima for me (no surprise there). Can't even remember the rest. The last I enjoyed was Morrsions Talia.

Female villains are definitely getting treated differently than male ones. They're aren't written with a global scale that males are depicted. Only one I can think is Cassandra Nova from X-men who surprise surprise is also written by Morrison.

DC needs to bring back Queen Bee, the one from Bialya not the alien one. YJ used her great and I enjoyed her in JLI.

Circe needs to be used more. DCUO uses her great.

Emerald Empress has potential.

Superwoman from Earth 3 should've stayed alive.

[Zero Hunter]

The Legion has some of the most dangerous female villains. The Emerald Empress, Glorith, and Saturn Queen are never treated as a joke and are some of the most powerful and dangerous foes the Legion ever faces.

[Agent Z]

Sure but the real Maxima can easily be Superman's Ra's al Ghul instead of being a reject in Supergirl and other lesser books.

The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.

[Ra-El]

The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.

Not if they make it not be about Superman, but about his genes, to her, he is little more than a mean to a end. Her goal is to produce an offspring strong enough to not only keep the throne, but to expand their domain, it's not even about having a kid, is about the lineage, the family name, legacy.

[Barbatos666]

The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.

It's the basis of Ra's and Batman's dynamic. They just need to make her scarier and tyranical.
The New 52 version has already been forgotten and accomplished nothing. She should be a top tier villain not Supergirl's pal.

[SJNeal]

The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.

Honest question - are you basing this off of appearances in other media besides the comics? Have you read any of Roger Stern's or Dan Jurgens' comic work with her?

She had quite the character arc from her introduction (1989) til her death (2002); it wasn't all great, but there's more there than the horny, psychotic minx that Smallville and TAS portrayed her as...

[Heavunion]

• *Are female villains treated differently from male ones?

Not really. It's a matter of circumstances. Everytime a female villain becomes popular, she is turned into a anti-hero and as a result, all you've left then are female villains who are even less popular and as a result, male villains are those who will get used since they are more popular by default

• *Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?

Because everytime a female villain is popular, women want her to be nice because that's a new hero for them and men want her to be nice because as women, they can forgive them. Even someone like Cheetah gets to be a anti-hero rather than a despicable villain and it's stupid. Look at Poison Ivy. What is her potential as a hero ? Small. What is her potential as a villain ? Big yet, all people want is her as a hero... And that's all the problem when using female villains. People will not allow them to be bad, like really bad

• *Why are female villains often relegated to femme fatale roles of lesser importance?

Because comic books is still a very male fantasy place and the femme fatale, just like the powerful hero, is a male fantasy. We like the idea of this sexy woman with who we have a ambiguous relation and who is hiding in the shadow ( and that makes me think I would love to see The Joker as a female because he kind of remind me of a Femme Fatale )

• *What female villains do you think could be elevated to a higher standing in the DC Universe?

Poison Ivy first. People love their fantasy of Batman taking on Superman, man vs god ? Poison Ivy is a literal god

Circe... Like, seriously, the most powerful sorceress on Earth, how has she never been apart of a Justice League story ?

Cheetah, the literal embodiment of hunt. a ruthless villain that will hunt you and always gets a piece of you. Have you played Injustice 2 ? In her ending, she uses planets for the sole purpose of hunting those who live there, it's scary and who she should be

Roulette is another character that could be great when used against street heroes, especially after how great Arcade was in Avengers Arena, and give a powerful woman for the underworld of DC

[Agent Z]

• *Are female villains treated differently from male ones?

Not really. It's a matter of circumstances. Everytime a female villain becomes popular, she is turned into a anti-hero and as a result, all you've left then are female villains who are even less popular and as a result, male villains are those who will get used since they are more popular by default

• That applies to any villain that isn’t a complete monster. And even a few who are. See Magneto and Sabertooth.
  Also, when male villains are written into becoming heroes, it doesn’t stop the writers from developing or creating other male villains. So this excuse doesn’t fly because there are plenty of female villains that can make for great antagonists but don’t have the focus to become such. Of the Sirens, only Selina can really be called an antihero. Harley simply realised the Joker doesn’t care about her anymore and Ivy just acts nicer towards Harley than the Joker does.
• *Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?

Because everytime a female villain is popular, women want her to be nice because that's a new hero for them

I don’t recall anyone wanting Hela to be a hero.

Even someone like Cheetah gets to be a anti-hero rather than a despicable villain and it's stupid.

When has Cheetah been written as an antihero?

Look at Poison Ivy. What is her potential as a hero ? Small.

How do you know? They’ve never written her as a hero long enough to see it.

• *Why are female villains often relegated to femme fatale roles of lesser importance?

[/B]
Because comic books is still a very male fantasy place and the femme fatale, just like the powerful hero, is a male fantasy. We like the idea of this sexy woman with who we have a ambiguous relation and who is hiding in the shadow ( and that makes me think I would love to see The Joker as a female because he kind of remind me of a Femme Fatale )

This I’ll agree with.

• *What female villains do you think could be elevated to a higher standing in the DC Universe?

Poison Ivy first. People love their fantasy of Batman taking on Superman, man vs god ? Poison Ivy is a literal god

Circe... Like, seriously, the most powerful sorceress on Earth, how has she never been apart of a Justice League story ?

Cheetah, the literal embodiment of hunt. a ruthless villain that will hunt you and always gets a piece of you. Have you played Injustice 2 ? In her ending, she uses planets for the sole purpose of hunting those who live there, it's scary and who she should be

Roulette is another character that could be great when used against street heroes, especially after how great Arcade was in Avengers Arena, and give a powerful woman for the underworld of DC

Circe appeared in a JL story by Morrison.

[Heavunion]

That applies to any villain that isn’t a complete monster. And even a few who are. See Magneto and Sabertooth.
Also, when male villains are written into becoming heroes, it doesn’t stop the writers from developing or creating other male villains. So this excuse doesn’t fly because there are plenty of female villains that can make for great antagonists but don’t have the focus to become such. Of the Sirens, only Selina can really be called an antihero. Harley simply realised the Joker doesn’t care about her anymore and Ivy just acts nicer towards Harley than the Joker does.

Except Magneto had been a major villain before being turned into a hero. He had time to do a bunch of evil plots and writer had used his potential, this was improving the character and allowing him to touch new scales. And yes, it can work for some characters like Harley Quinn ( who won't be a villain anytime soon, maybe temporary with a Suicide Squad cross-over but she's no more someone you can have be evil ), it does not work on someone like Catwoman who is losing her edge ( depending on the writer ) when that's what makes her relationship with Batman interesting

The thing is that for a female villain to go big ( meaning every comic book fans should be able to tell you who she is just by hearing the name ) and stay full evil is pretty rare, especially when as soon as they are iconic, they aren't used as villains so much anymore

[*][*][*]*Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?[/LIST][/B]

As for creating female villains, most writers are male writing for male characters. Unless it is a effort, they won't write women characters. It is a vicious cycle. Woman villain gets created, people love her because women characters aren't that many, she gets turned into a anti-hero to appeal to more and you no longer have a A-villain.

The character I have in my avatar shows that. She may be a woman but the only reason she is one is because the storyline called for a traitor and people have more sympathy for women

I don’t recall anyone wanting Hela to be a hero.

She's not that popular much like a lot of female villains at Marvel. Known to those who look into the universe for sure but not enough so people who follow Marvel from far away know who she is

When has Cheetah been written as an antihero?

Well, the last Rebrith portrayed her in a more heroic than villainous light

How do you know? They’ve never written her as a hero long enough to see it.

Because everything in her is made for a villain. Her powers include poisonning people, it's in her name and that's not what heroes do. Things like caring about children works as a villain because it adds depth to her but as a hero ? No big deal, they all want to save children. And then, her heroic actions are only for plants ( or women being abused ) which can get boring fast when as a villain, she can at least be either someone with right motivations but bad actions or just a crazy one who is totally wrong, she can fight strong heroes like Superman or fight street heroes like Batman. She have range as a villain which she does not as a hero.

And she's been a hero since the New 52 started. The last Batman issues are one of the few issues in the last 5 years that have her as a full blown threat who have to be stopped at any cost. That's pretty long

Circe appeared in a JL story by Morrison.

Not as the main threat which is why one of the reason why this thread exists, about how female villains can rarely be the main threat and will often share the story with another villain, if they aren't just a lackey