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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    I think Maxima can be a great and terrifying villain. They can even keep the procreation with Superman angle. But instead of making it sound funny and cute, the should turn her in to a eugenist, only caring about keeping her lineage on power. She should be a real tyrant, she is already powerful, they just need to make her scary.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    In the boring days we live, if you try to write a real bad ass villainess you end up being accused of sexism and other isms.

    That said, I'm total in favor of more female villains. Circe and Lady Shiva are two who come to mind that have real potential, but seem to be seldom used.

    Over at Marvel, Superia is the only major player that comes to mind, and her motivations as a female supremacist tend to be used in, quite frankly, ridiculous ways.

    I liked Maxima as a villiain, but i also liked her a lot as a hero too.

    Peace
    Yeah remember all the backlash Hela from Ragnarok got?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    Sure but the real Maxima can easily be Superman's Ra's al Ghul instead of being a reject in Supergirl and other lesser books.
    The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Seems like TV does a better job at making female villains truly dangerous than the comic books do. On Arrow there is Black Siren. On Supergirl this season alone there is Reign, Purity, Psi. Flash has Amunet, Hazard and
    Killer Frost (though somewhat neutered now). And Gotham has Barbara, Tabitha, Selina, and Sophia. With Poison Ivy coming. Which is odd because far more people watch TV or even go to the movies than read comic books. You would think if people were offended by making women evil TV would get a lot more criticism. But people love Black Siren, Reign, evil Killer Frost, crazy Barbara. (People hated sane Barbara)
    But are they villain? Black Siren is should signs of turning to side of good. Same as Killer Frost and Tabitha. Selina is an anti-hero. Basically you go to the same problem, the most interesting female villains end up turning to the lighside.

    And here is my theory of why in part this happen. Superman having a affair with Maxima, as long as he isn't with Lois, we're fine. Batman having something with Talia and a son, it's ok. Roy Harper and Cheshire, all good. But Wonder Woman having a relationship with... let's say Vandal Savage I don't think it would be that well received.
    It is fine that our male heroes are so badass that not even those evil women are capable to resist them and that they sometimes let themselves be seduced by some femme fatale, that a female villain will change her ways for them. But a female hero "giving herself" to a bad guy? I don't think the majority of the readers, who happens to be men, would like that.
    Last edited by Ra-El; 02-23-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.
    Not if they make it not be about Superman, but about his genes, to her, he is little more than a mean to a end. Her goal is to produce an offspring strong enough to not only keep the throne, but to expand their domain, it's not even about having a kid, is about the lineage, the family name, legacy.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Maxima is gross. Talk about a Pro/Con Workshop candidate.

  7. #22
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    I think its because villians exist to get punched in the face.

    Human society has a problem with a guy punching a woman in the face over and over again.

    There are a few exceptions, most notable to this general rule is lady deathstrike in marvel. She and wolverine "get it in" quite a bit.

    However... overall subconsciously we kind of know that the fight between an male protagonist and a female villian isn't going to turn into a curb stomp. So the dramatic tension is less. Meanwhile since its fights between
    typically "Ideal" humans *the sexual tension is more. So its hard to take a villain serious when you know at any moment the Protaganist might make them an ally "the old fashioned way" so to speak.

    I would argue that a female villian would have to The Complete Monster... AND unattractive in someway. An "Old Crone" style figure could get these hands if she/it was monstrous instead of motherly.



    *Beowulf. Great story. Then they animated it and Grendels Mother was Angelina Jolie. . . no fighting occurred in that cave.
    That aspect of the issue is huge.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.
    It's the basis of Ra's and Batman's dynamic. They just need to make her scarier and tyranical.
    The New 52 version has already been forgotten and accomplished nothing. She should be a top tier villain not Supergirl's pal.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    I think Maxima can be a great and terrifying villain. They can even keep the procreation with Superman angle. But instead of making it sound funny and cute, the should turn her in to a eugenist, only caring about keeping her lineage on power. She should be a real tyrant, she is already powerful, they just need to make her scary.
    I don't think it's the right role for Maxima, but it recently came up in one of the GL threads that one possible way to make the present day DCU's cosmic universe more interesting would be to introduce a Lord Frieza type figure into the mix. I mentioned Blackfire on the previous page, maybe she could work in that role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The "real" Maxima has only one character trait: her obsession with Superman's see. Putting aside how outdated that bit of writing for female characters is, it's hardly the most dignified of villain motivations. If anything the New 52 version was the first time the character felt like something more than a one-dimensional punchline.
    Was New52 Maxima the same as Superwoman Maxima? If so, agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I think its because villians exist to get punched in the face.

    Human society has a problem with a guy punching a woman in the face over and over again.

    There are a few exceptions, most notable to this general rule is lady deathstrike in marvel. She and wolverine "get it in" quite a bit.

    However... overall subconsciously we kind of know that the fight between an male protagonist and a female villian isn't going to turn into a curb stomp. So the dramatic tension is less. Meanwhile since its fights between
    typically "Ideal" humans *the sexual tension is more. So its hard to take a villain serious when you know at any moment the Protaganist might make them an ally "the old fashioned way" so to speak.

    I would argue that a female villian would have to The Complete Monster... AND unattractive in someway. An "Old Crone" style figure could get these hands if she/it was monstrous instead of motherly.



    *Beowulf. Great story. Then they animated it and Grendels Mother was Angelina Jolie. . . no fighting occurred in that cave.
    That aspect of the issue is huge.
    Or, and here's a thought, we try and come up with ideas that move AWAY from sexist and regressive ideas, rather than trying to work within the confines of a broken system.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbatos666 View Post
    It's the basis of Ra's and Batman's dynamic. They just need to make her scarier and tyranical.
    The New 52 version has already been forgotten and accomplished nothing. She should be a top tier villain not Supergirl's pal.
    And what did the original version accomplish? It isn't like the New 52 version was around for long.

    Ra's and Bruce's dynamic revolves around the fact they want the same goals but use different methods. You could remove the angle with him being an in universe Talia/Bruce shipper like the Nolan movies did and the dynamic remains the same.

  11. #26
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Please delete
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 02-23-2018 at 01:59 PM.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I think its because villians exist to get punched in the face.

    Human society has a problem with a guy punching a woman in the face over and over again.

    There are a few exceptions, most notable to this general rule is lady deathstrike in marvel. She and wolverine "get it in" quite a bit.

    However... overall subconsciously we kind of know that the fight between an male protagonist and a female villian isn't going to turn into a curb stomp. So the dramatic tension is less. Meanwhile since its fights between
    typically "Ideal" humans *the sexual tension is more. So its hard to take a villain serious when you know at any moment the Protaganist might make them an ally "the old fashioned way" so to speak.

    I would argue that a female villian would have to The Complete Monster... AND unattractive in someway. An "Old Crone" style figure could get these hands if she/it was monstrous instead of motherly.



    *Beowulf. Great story. Then they animated it and Grendels Mother was Angelina Jolie. . . no fighting occurred in that cave.
    That aspect of the issue is huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Or, and here's a thought, we try and come up with ideas that move AWAY from sexist and regressive ideas, rather than trying to work within the confines of a broken system.
    I agree with you both.

    I had a similar conversation with another DC fan; he said Superman had so few villainesses because no one wants to see him hit a woman. I said that Superman doesn't have to hit; he does have to defeat them.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    I agree with you both.

    I had a similar conversation with another DC fan; he said Superman had so few villainesses because no one wants to see him hit a woman. I said that Superman doesn't have to hit; he does have to defeat them.
    I wasn't agreeing with them. At all. The idea that 'Men shouldn't hit women' is incredibly sexist.

    booster punch.jpg

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    I don't like New 52 Maxima mainly because she feels nerfed. From what I saw of her she just makes psychic knives and throws them compared to the old Maxima who went toe to toe with the strongest characters. Also don't like her design but that's whatever.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And what did the original version accomplish? It isn't like the New 52 version was around for long.

    Ra's and Bruce's dynamic revolves around the fact they want the same goals but use different methods. You could remove the angle with him being an in universe Talia/Bruce shipper like the Nolan movies did and the dynamic remains the same.
    Be a unique Superman villain in an okayish rogues gallery.

    Nolan films still used the successor angle. Superman/Maxima doesn't have to revolve around mating. Just take that idea and write stories around it while exploring new angles. But she needs to start somewhere.Characters develop with time, Ra's was pretty much a shipper for a long time. Begins came out decades after his existence.

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