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  1. #91
    Amazing Member Heavunion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Replace with plants with mutant and I could say the same of Magneto. Ivy isn’t nothing. She’s one of the most famous Batman villain. They wouldn’t be considering making a movie about her if she weren’t and it isn’t like Swamp Thin gets much use anyway. Harley and Ivy have also been marketed as a package deal.
    The Joker, Mr.Freeze, Scarecrow, Bane or Two-Face are more popular than Ivy or at least it would seem to me. She's someone who have her use in Batman's rogues gallery but she is not important to the point you can't think of Batman without her and that's why she should stay as a villain, because this is where she have her use because otherwise, she doesn't have a lot to do in Batman book. And unlike the mutants who are a big part of the Marvel Universe that you can't do without, plants aren't a major element of DC

    As for Harley and Ivy as a package deal, that's wrong. The arguable lead-appeal of Suicide Squad is Harley Quinn who is without Ivy. Harley Quinn comic-book is simply called Harley Quinn instead of Harley & Ivy as for the movie, it's only being done because Harley is popular and they wanted to do a movie with her. Maybe in the beginning, Ivy was the more popular but in the last few years, Harley's popularity got crazy and Ivy is behind her

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Whiplash was in poorly received movie and a throwaway villain. Hela was not.
    It's not about the quality of the movie but about the reception of the movie. Killmonger is one name who became popular lately, not because of how good Black Panther was but because of how people reacted to his character and the fact that they really liked him... Which did not happen to Hela as when people came out of Ragnarok, she wasn't one of the things people talked about when praising the movie, she was more of an afterthought


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Cheetah has never worked as a big WW villain. Her popularity comes from being one of three WW villains that appear the most in DC media (the other two being Circe and Ares who are far more worthy of being heavy antagonists than Cheetah is). Being a good villain does not always mean being a major antagonist. If it did, Grail would be considered a good villain but she isn’t.
    But she is Wonder Woman's most iconic villain as it stands. It's not about who it should be but who have that connection. Maybe it can change in the future but not all villains are worthy. Joker is just a guy who can make plans or even Lex is nothing but a rich guy but they were iconic so the writers gave them great storylines to turn them into villains you can believe in. That is Cheetah's role, she have to be someone who goes against Diana as her most iconic villain and would've gained more from fighting Wonder Woman in a epic storyline by Greg Rucka than having a great background and writers not as good writing her actual conrontations

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Ivy has human connections like Harley and the children she’s protected.
    And those stand-out because she rejected her human side, became a villain and so, it is surprising for someone evil to still be able to feel emotions for other humans. It adds depth to her character because this is not something she usually do like Aquaman, for her to care like this implies a strong connection and makes it even more memorable. If she start caring about everyone like Aquaman, you lose those nuances and what was special becomes normal

    That would be like making Mr.Freeze a good guy, who cares for more people than Nora and start taking the pain of other people on his shoulders. While that would be interesting, you would lose some of what makes his tragedy good, his connection with Nora becomes less special without the contrast and the character is less interesting.

    What makes Ivy interesting isn't that she can love Harley and that she can care for children, it is that she does that despite being capable of the worst evil on others, that this must require incredibly amount of love which makes it lovely

  2. #92
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    Because many just don't bother to develop them.

    One of my favorite female villains by far is Lyssa Drak.

    DC seemed to be building her up. First working for Sinestro, then Krona. That it seemed like the GL books were going to be pushing her as her own villain sooner than later...only to basically shove her into a prison cell off screen and forget about her... presumably as no one had a real plan for her.

    Until she was brought back pretty much explicitly to be Sinestro's significant other (which was never hinted at prior to that, she even hated him prior to this for a bit while working for Krona). I mean it works and I love the two as an evil power couple in an almost Morticia and Gomez Addams way. But it was pretty obvious she was only used again for the sexy angle and that's always disappointed me. We don't get to see stories about her really.

  3. #93
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    And yes Rucka's run definitely favors the idea that Cheetah isn't so much a villain but someone with a curse. Basically to make the whole concept of Diana ever having to fight or kill her an emotional choice because of it.

    It's not even the first time Cheetah's evil has been downplayed. See the time she and Snapper Carr were a thing during Final Crisis and it made her danger level essentially "Well she doesn't like Wonder Woman but she's not SO bad."

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavunion View Post
    The Joker, Mr.Freeze, Scarecrow, Bane or Two-Face are more popular than Ivy or at least it would seem to me. She's someone who have her use in Batman's rogues gallery but she is not important to the point you can't think of Batman without her and that's why she should stay as a villain, because this is where she have her use because otherwise, she doesn't have a lot to do in Batman book. And unlike the mutants who are a big part of the Marvel Universe that you can't do without, plants aren't a major element of DC

    As for Harley and Ivy as a package deal, that's wrong. The arguable lead-appeal of Suicide Squad is Harley Quinn who is without Ivy. Harley Quinn comic-book is simply called Harley Quinn instead of Harley & Ivy as for the movie, it's only being done because Harley is popular and they wanted to do a movie with her. Maybe in the beginning, Ivy was the more popular but in the last few years, Harley's popularity got crazy and Ivy is behind her



    It's not about the quality of the movie but about the reception of the movie. Killmonger is one name who became popular lately, not because of how good Black Panther was but because of how people reacted to his character and the fact that they really liked him... Which did not happen to Hela as when people came out of Ragnarok, she wasn't one of the things people talked about when praising the movie, she was more of an afterthought




    But she is Wonder Woman's most iconic villain as it stands. It's not about who it should be but who have that connection. Maybe it can change in the future but not all villains are worthy. Joker is just a guy who can make plans or even Lex is nothing but a rich guy but they were iconic so the writers gave them great storylines to turn them into villains you can believe in. That is Cheetah's role, she have to be someone who goes against Diana as her most iconic villain and would've gained more from fighting Wonder Woman in a epic storyline by Greg Rucka than having a great background and writers not as good writing her actual conrontations



    And those stand-out because she rejected her human side, became a villain and so, it is surprising for someone evil to still be able to feel emotions for other humans. It adds depth to her character because this is not something she usually do like Aquaman, for her to care like this implies a strong connection and makes it even more memorable. If she start caring about everyone like Aquaman, you lose those nuances and what was special becomes normal

    That would be like making Mr.Freeze a good guy, who cares for more people than Nora and start taking the pain of other people on his shoulders. While that would be interesting, you would lose some of what makes his tragedy good, his connection with Nora becomes less special without the contrast and the character is less interesting.

    What makes Ivy interesting isn't that she can love Harley and that she can care for children, it is that she does that despite being capable of the worst evil on others, that this must require incredibly amount of love which makes it lovely
    There's nothing inherently more "lame" about Cheetah than there is about Joker, or Riddler, or Lex Luthor, or Zod, etc. The difference is not in concept, but execution.
    The reason why fans see Batman and Superman's rogues as "better" is largely due to DC having spent A LOT more time/effort in building them up. So many fans have been conditioned to see them as better because, that's how they're pushed. There's no reason why other hero's villains couldn't be same way, except that creators don't bother to even TRY most of the time.

    Unfortunately WW usually gets short-changed/given short-shrift when compared to the other two Trinity members in-general.

  5. #95
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    Why do women make good hostage negotiators? It's because men, who are usually the ones holding hostages, like and trust women more than they do men It's easy for a man to see a man as no good, and it's harder for a man to see a woman that way.

  6. #96
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    the thing is i think dc is tryna made harley quinn an anti hero some fans want certain female villains to be straight up anti-heroes. Everytime a female villian is introduced they think she has to be good or doing something bad for the right reason. talia al ghul and poison ivy fans got mad at dc cause they made them into villians last week

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelinaK12 View Post
    the thing is i think dc is tryna made harley quinn an anti hero some fans want certain female villains to be straight up anti-heroes. Everytime a female villian is introduced they think she has to be good or doing something bad for the right reason. talia al ghul and poison ivy fans got mad at dc cause they made them into villians last week
    Harley basically is a an anti-hero in her title series. Though, she has the "blessing" of the chief of police there, contrary to say, Jason Todd as Red Hood and what not.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    If female villains were treated like how male villains are treated I can already see the articles being written crying misogyny. They don't really want to portray female characters as being horrifically evil or have them getting beaten to a pulp/killed. So it is easier to just have them fall into this anti-hero or not full on evil role that so many do.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Are female villains treated differently from male ones?

    It's a combo of sexism and androcentrism to me. For whatever reason, many/some writers and artists can't/don't have the creative curiosity, empathy, or skill to put themselves "in the shoes" of female characters similarly to male characters or regard them with the same potentiality of character (good or evil) as men. It's slowly changing, but we really need new writers who get this and are able to execute it.

    Why does it seem that the majority of powerful villains at a global scale are men?

    Comfort in portraying men in this way over time and thinking only men are capable of this level of power. Women get/got regarded as objects many times that must "support" (stereotype) their man's scheme because they're too weak "physically, intellectually, and emotionally" (stereotypes) to possibly be the leader/Big Bad.

    Why are female villains often relegated to femme fatale roles of lesser importance?

    Sexism and objectification based on a misguided premise that that's what their audience wants or the only thing their audience wants from female villains.

    The reasons for the above questions is a bunch hooey and needs to be actively changed by writers, artists, editors, and publishers. I mean, I wonder how many times they've convened at their creative retreats and brought this issues up? Let alone say, which villainesses in our catalog of characters need a bigger push in the next year? Or why doesn't this villainess be the main focus for this event? I'm guessing not very often. <shoulder shrug>

    What female villains do you think could be elevated to a higher standing in the DC Universe?

    ZOMG... So. Many.

    Maxima - Clearly some people here don't like her, but she's got a fantastic power set and is one of handful, sadly, of female adversaries for Superman. (SHAME!) She's been stereotypically "man hungry" in the past, but when you look at some of the themes surrounding her she's got a bit of a frightening eugenics vibe about her. There's something to mine there in how her alien culture perceives relationships and potentially colonization (if that's something she's after regarding Earth) and adding that to the Almerac genetics pool. (For the former idea, she actually has a bit in common with Kryptonian culture in some tellings, excluding Jor-El and Lara for having Kal-El out of love.) Perhaps she wants additional metahuman abilities added to her people or warriors. The point is trying to think bigger with the characters and not just constrict them to only what they've been in the past. I mean, I'd hate to see what might happen if Maxima and Zod start dating and what that means... For Almerac, and for Superman, and for Ursa, and for Earth.

    Wonder Adversaries - I'm soooooo tired of the Wonder foes getting NERFED. Two things about many of them, they're brilliant doctors/scientists and their monsters in their own right.

    Cheetah - Should be the foremost archeologist and anthropologist on mythical, magical, alien, and interdimensional artifacts in the DCU, let alone transforming herself into a demigod that can go toe to toe with Superman, Wonder Woman, Shazam, Black Adam, etc. physically. Barbara should be scarier than the Cheetah in some respects and should be visiting Lex at LexCorp to discuss whether or not they should co-create a new Injustice League and who should be on their team while sipping champagne and trading bons mots with each other.

    Circe - Goddess of magic. Enough said - where's her Justice League story arc where she takes on the Justice League and Justice Society simultaneously for whatever her nefarious plan is. Zatanna and Doctor Fate can fight her sure, but they should equally be in awe of her sorcerous abilities.

    Doctor Poison - Master of poisons and biochemistry, wrapped up in self-inflicted insanity. Doctor Poison should be someone who has studied and is mastering the vast array of biologies of all the different types beings on Earth - whether human, metahuman, magical, mythic, godly, demigodly, extraterrestrial, or interdimensional. She'll find your physical weakness and it will be AGONY. Like a cat, she likes playing with life and death with her victims for funsies. I can't believe no one has written a Doctor Poison and Joker adventure yet. It's just waiting to happen.

    Giganta - Dr. Zeul is has zero moral center and no qualms experimenting on herself as well as others. Where Doctor Poison embraces death, Doctor Zeul embraces manipulating life in a twisted way. She not mere hired muscle, she's brilliant biologist and geneticist, with an ample desire to play god with the human, metahuman, mythic, magical, divine, extraterrestrial, and interdimensional species in the DCU.

    Superwoman - The Queen of Crime on Earth-3 is essentially a blank slate. It's time to buck the trend of Ultraman or Owlman being the unofficial leader of Earth 3, unless it's that Superwoman is so brilliant and playing such a long game that she only lets them think they're leading. Superwoman needs to step up, drop the Lois Lane identity for a more twisted Amazonian origin, and become a major contender in the multiverse.

    That's enough for the Amazon adversaries...how about:

    Female Furies - They've been NERFED by Lois Lane and Steve Trevor lately. Not good for some of Darkseid's Elite. Barda would be ashamed. These women should be nightmares and terrorizing when they show up. We were discussing them on the Wonder Woman board and another poster brought up that you need to be at least Aquaman-level powerful to hope to throw down with them a little - I tend to agree. (DC really needs to start defining the New Gods and their power sets and the nature of their divinity so we can avoid awful showings like what the Female Furies recently had.)

    Phobia - Innate metahuman powers of fear. Always passed over for Scarecrow being the master of fear or only the token female character on a supervillain team. She could be a bigger villain with some additional characterization.

    New Wave - She was the leader of a supervillain team when no other woman was. Bring back the Masters of Disaster and keep New Wave as the leader.

    Queen Bee - The one from Bialya with mind control powers or Zazzala from space. Either (or both) work as different types of major villains.

    I could go on and on with obscure villainesses that don't even have to be world conquerors, but deserve and make more stories interesting when they're written with creative back stories and respect in terms of their skills and motives in villainy.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    ...

    New Wave - She was the leader of a supervillain team when no other woman was. Bring back the Masters of Disaster and keep New Wave as the leader.

    Queen Bee - The one from Bialya with mind control powers or Zazzala from space. Either (or both) work as different types of major villains.

    I could go on and on with obscure villainesses that don't even have to be world conquerors, but deserve and make more stories interesting when they're written with creative back stories and respect in terms of their skills and motives in villainy.
    The one from Bialya should be the Queen Bee and Zazzala can be...Zazzala! (What's wrong with her name?) Why would an alien conqueror want to be named after a Earth insect anyway?

    Good post, WonderScott.

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    The one from Bialya should be the Queen Bee and Zazzala can be...Zazzala! (What's wrong with her name?) Why would an alien conqueror want to be named after a Earth insect anyway?

    Good post, WonderScott.
    Thanks and I'm down with that...Zazzala is my favorite supervillainess name of all time.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Oddly enough it seems like children’s cartoons are better at making female villains then comics are.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Why do women make good hostage negotiators? It's because men, who are usually the ones holding hostages, like and trust women more than they do men It's easy for a man to see a man as no good, and it's harder for a man to see a woman that way.
    Well...it's actually really easy for a lot of men to think that women are sneaky, manipulating, and up to no good. That belief is at the core of the "femme fatale" archetype.

  14. #104
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    Coming from a family of law enforcement people, it's not hard for me to buy female villains at all. They're just as capable of being evil as men are.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Oddly enough it seems like children’s cartoons are better at making female villains then comics are.
    Yes, they can.

    In fairness, new cartoons do not have decades of baggage...but comics do.

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