Death and Return of Superman movie will be set in the New 52

[Miles To Go]

Another 'viner has apparently seen Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay

I watched Hell to Pay and its continuity implications are HUGE. Fully expect some Superman Reborn style story.

[adrikito]

Another 'viner has apparently seen Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay

¿¿SS:Hell to Pay?? I think that I heard about this previously..

[Miles To Go]

More info (special thanks to Jon11 in the Lois and Clark thread)

I did see the sneak peek for Death of Superman and...I’m not gonna lie, it looks really good. The action looks epic and more polished than we’ve gotten from these in a while. Love how it’s exploring Superman’s corner, they even got friggin Bibbo from the animated series in there!

Doomsday looks actually dangerous, which is something I don’t usually say about characters in these movies lol. And the League is all present for a fight they clearly won’t win, and I love how desperate and bloody it feels. Wonder Woman vs Doomsday looks SAVAGE AS @&$)!!!

The usual voice cast returns, which I know bothers a lot of people, but I like Rosario Dawson’s WW & Jerry O’Connell’s Superman, and glad he’s finally given something to do other than date WW. Speaking of which, they finally undid that bad relationship and got Supes with Lois!!!

And in a really inspired & sweet touch, they casted O’Connell’s real life wife Rebecca Romijn (original Mystique) as Lois Lane. I love touches like that ^^ The rest of the cast is fine, nice to see Nathan Fillion back as Hal, but I still prefer John Stewart be the League’s GL.

The ONLY casting I can’t figure out is Rainn Wilson as Lex Luthor. Yeah, the guy from The Office. That’s a...weird one. I’ve learned to not judge superhero/villain castings ahead of time, so I’ll wait and see, but yeah.
Odd choice that one. Still, very excited to see this one.

https://twitter.com/DCAbridged/statu...54792942415872

[Nelliebly]

Pretty sure lois came out of Whom Gods destroy looking pretty good.

Not really. She was stripped of her own identity in that story. I don't know any Lois/Clark fans who like that. Also, Kingdom Come, Injustice Gods Among us, Dark Knight Strikes Again, Distant Fires, JLA Created Equal, the entire new 52. I could go on and on. Do you really want to play this game? The point is that both women tend to be treated badly when writers insist on pushing Lois aside to push Superman/Wonder Woman. Diana often winds up written horrifically OOC and Lois, sadly, often winds up dead. Both women wind up treated badly and I care a lot about how BOTH women are treated regardless of a freaking ship.

You seem to straw man that the SM/WW crowd wanted this when truth be told a lot of people would prefer that it didn't happen, hell in throne of Atlantis it ruined a perfectly good scene to remind us of the previous status quo.

Ok well first off, that's not what straw man means. SO, no, it's not a straw man.

Two, if I missed where you were concerned about how Lois was treated in Throne of Atlantis and expressed discomfort with the film setting her up to look stupid than I must have missed that. If you expressed concern over her treatment, please, by all means, direct me to that post so I can apologize to you.

As it stands, for reasons what we don't need to get into on this thread, there tends to be a lot of overlap in women who support Lois Lane and like teh Supermarriage but also love and respect Wonder Woman. The majority of the female bloggers and high profile female creators who came out against the ending of the Supermarriage and NEVER felt comfortable with the new 52 are fans of BOTH women. Gail Simone. Kelly Sue. Corrina Lawson. DCwomen. The list goes on and on. The women who run the fyeahLois blogs and the woman who runs the Superman/Lois blogs on tumblr are also huge advocates for Wonder Woman. They count her among their favorite characters, they buy her comic and they advocate for her. I'm the biggest Clark/Lois fan there is and I saw Wonder Woman in the theater literally 3 times. I'm furious when Wonder Woman is mistreated. I love her deeply. I never want to see her tossed out or killed off or treated badly in any capacity. And I think it's safe to say that most Lois/Clark fans feel the exact same way.

We could theorize why (oh could we) these trends tend to develop but that's the reality. There are exceptions to this rule but, in general, most of the Lois/Clark fans are ::genuinely: concerned about how Diana is treated and want her to be treated well and with respect. This is something you could perhaps reflect on as it does impact the way these conversations tend to play out. I care a LOT about how both women are treated. Because I recognize that they are both important characters with important messages and that impacts how I process this media.

Tell that to dan jurgens and greg rucka who both failed at that attempt.

Greg Rucka loves Wonder Woman deeply. He has openly said on more than one occasion that he thinks Wonder Woman is the most important property that DC owns even over BATMAN. He doesn't support Wonder Woman with Superman and he has reasons for that that he's expressed. The only thing he had Diana express in his book was that she felt the relationship with Superman had felt simple and easier and that she was confused about love. Not only did that explanation make a ton of sense to me but it very much seemed to match what Geoff John was initially going for when the New 52 launched when he too expressed that Superman and Wonder Woman were drawn to each other because it felt easier than allowing themselves to open up to humans who could die or get hurt. That Wonder Woman LEARNED from this experience and allowed herself to open up to Steve was not disrespectful or mean. It's character growth.

Dan Jurgens only ever had Wonder Woman say that Clark's relationship with Lois felt "true" to her.

The fact that Greg Rucka doesn't support your ship of choice does not change that he's a genuine advocate for Wonder Woman as a franchise and as a character. He's done literally nothing wrong. One of the best advocates that we have which is why he has received the respect that he has received.

I don't enjoy the whole "so close it's like they're related" angle. Personally I enjoy the fact that they are friends that have an underlying attraction to each other that were too scared to act upon it, that was what made the relationship pre flashpoint great rather then the other attempts such as the recent trinity where they feel like strangers.

Well, let's be clear, the idea that Superman and Wonder Woman had an "underlying attraction to each other that they were too scared to act upon" is partly fanon. That interpretation is not what was always conveyed in the actual books. There were writers who played with the idea that Wonder Woman, especially, had feelings for Superman but just as many writers made it clear that she loved him as a friend. Not everyone interpreted their relationship that way pre-new 52. I understand that some people did but not EVERYONE did and there's a larger convo to be had (that isn't relevant here) about how and why Wonder woman got put in that position at DC Comics by a bunch of male writers for so long.

Personally, I think downplaying the importance of a platonic and familial relationship between a man and a woman like Clark and Diana is a mistake. Superman and Wonder Woman loving each other like family is refreshing to a lot of people distinctly because there is no reason why two people with extremely similar physical beauty and physical privileges need to be attracted to each other. All that does is reinforce that idea that men and women truly can't be friends without something else coming into the picture. Which isn't a great message. It's also not a great message to imply that Superman essentially was harboring an attraction to another woman despite his repeated statements that he was in love with Lois and only wanted to be with Lois. I'm not quite sure what's appealing about essentially hoping for Superman to be an adulterer and it's cruel and unfair to Lois to essentially construct a fan canon where she was his second choice because he was "too afraid" to be with Wonder Woman. None of that is a good look for Superman anymore than it's a good look for Wonder Woman. And it's certainly super unfair to Lois. I miss their closeness pre-flashpoint too but that's because I truly loved the idea that they loved each other as family because that's deeply refreshing and beautiful. I understand that you don't care about Lois and she's not your concern. But that's part of the problem here because we can't talk honestly about the way this repeated dragging out of Wonder Woman/Superman/Lois hurts both women if you only care about one of them and could care less if Lois is marginalized or dead. Some of us care about both of them. A lot of us actually. And this conversation is just going to spin in circles unless you can find some empathy for Lois too in all this.

[Miles To Go]

The comicviner pulled a Dolores on you.

He supplied the source (took 'em long enough)

http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2018/03/...an-movie-cast/

[Korath]

Well, I knew it would end badly for the DCAU outside of the Bat-movies. It's returning to the "I'm not watching this shit" if D.C. can't get real and either straight up create another line for Death of Superman alongside the one they had currently, and have to erase the SM/WW couple even here. I get that fans of the original (and frankly not to my taste at all) Clois, but come on, D.C. You're shamelessly trying to get my money with tons of merchandising of Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple and do that in the same time. Seriously, stop it, it's insulting for us, and degrading for Diana.

[rpmaluki]

DoS is Superman with Lois though and i assume merchandising is independent of the comics/films/shows since it does not rely on storytelling and fans typically like the "power couple" concept that isn't or has never needed to be romantic. DC won't stop merchandising them (Superman/Wonder Woman) "together" just because they aren't together and don't need to be.

[Superfamily]

I also see batman and wonder woman together in marchandising, and I don't see it badly ... and it doesn't mean that they are a couple .. Everyone knows who they're and what group they are, the same thing with superman and ww

[ssupes]

Not really. She was stripped of her own identity in that story. I don't know any Lois/Clark fans who like that. The point is that both women tend to be treated badly when writers insist on pushing Lois aside to push Superman/Wonder Woman.

You failed to mention the amount times Wonder Woman has been used to boost the clois marriage or to prop up Lois and if you have proof Lois/clark fans don't like the story you can share.

Two, if I missed where you were concerned about how Lois was treated in Throne of Atlantis and expressed discomfort with the film setting her up to look stupid than I must have missed that. If you expressed concern over her treatment, please, by all means, direct me to that post so I can apologize to you.

Firstly this forum isn't a journal for my thoughts and feelings, my views are my own and I don't consider myself a reviewer to go into great details about everything I like and don't like.

Secondly, you are aware how awful this site is at finding old posts especially at the time the film came out so even if I was desperate to have your forgiveness on this subject the amount of time it would take would be ridiculous.

And finally I don't care for your opinion or if you believe me or not, as not everything is about your ego and something I have to prove. Label me as sexist if you wish like on twitter, I couldn't care.

I'm the biggest Clark/Lois fan there is and I saw Wonder Woman in the theater literally 3 times. I'm furious when Wonder Woman is mistreated. I love her deeply. I never want to see her tossed out or killed off or treated badly in any capacity. And I think it's safe to say that most Lois/Clark fans feel the exact same way.

Seems you only care for her when she stays in her own lane and only post on the wonder woman forum when she doesn't, but then again it's not like I questioned whether you where a fan or not and I really wonder why you are bringing this up?

Greg Rucka loves Wonder Woman deeply. He has openly said on more than one occasion that he thinks Wonder Woman is the most important property that DC owns even over BATMAN.

He tends to care that Wonder Woman is with Batman more which is a confusing contradiction.

The only thing he had Diana express in his book was that she felt the relationship with Superman had felt simple and easier and that she was confused about love. Not only did that explanation make a ton of sense to me but it very much seemed to match what Geoff John was initially going for when the New 52 launched when he too expressed that Superman and Wonder Woman were drawn to each other because it felt easier than allowing themselves to open up to humans who could die or get hurt. That Wonder Woman LEARNED from this experience and allowed herself to open up to Steve was not disrespectful or mean. It's character growth.

Seems completely normal for wonder woman to say that about a man she said she loved and died in her arms in turn around and say LOL didn't care anyway, but don't take my word for it, ask Miles.
And even the "easy" line was from Alan Moore which shows how original he is plus given the original context it was more a critiscm of DC at the time given he had a story in the works that DC never did.

Dan Jurgens only ever had Wonder Woman say that Clark's relationship with Lois felt "true" to her.

Ah yes the mouthpiece issue where she only appeared for that reason and then went on to play babysitter and get a beating against doomsday. Jurgens then proceeded to say that the SM/WW was the only thing that didn't happen in the New 52 (even truth is canon somehow with Wonder Womans massive presence). I mean I have the books to show that it happened but if Dan Jurgens says it didn't happen then I guess I'll go to him for the refund on my money.

The fact that Greg Rucka doesn't support your ship of choice does not change that he's a genuine advocate for Wonder Woman as a franchise and as a character. He's done literally nothing wrong. One of the best advocates that we have which is why he has received the respect that he has received.

Your exaggerating there since there are plenty of people who found both his runs dull or full of issues, I mean the killing of Maxwell Lord and the Blackest night are just a few that show he isn't the greatest wonder woman writer.

Well, let's be clear, the idea that Superman and Wonder Woman had an "underlying attraction to each other that they were too scared to act upon" is partly fanon. That interpretation is not what was always conveyed in the actual books. There were writers who played with the idea that Wonder Woman, especially, had feelings for Superman but just as many writers made it clear that she loved him as a friend.

Seems like your guilty of creating your own "fanon" it seems, I mean you could always check out the SM/WW apreciation page or even the superman homepage if you wish.

Personally, I think downplaying the importance of a platonic and familial relationship between a man and a woman like Clark and Diana is a mistake.

Personally I wondered why people could be like that during the new 52 for Clark and Lois unlike people like Scott Snyder and Andy Diggle as well as people who enjoyed their issues, but because I didn't write this down you've already judged me it seems.

I understand that you don't care about Lois and she's not your concern. But that's part of the problem here because we can't talk honestly about the way this repeated dragging out of Wonder Woman/Superman/Lois hurts both women if you only care about one of them and could care less if Lois is marginalized or dead. Some of us care about both of them. A lot of us actually. And this conversation is just going to spin in circles unless you can find some empathy for Lois too in all this.

Your right there's no point in getting into a conversation with a person that has more empathy for fictional characters then real people.

[Miles To Go]

Seems like your guilty of creating your own "fanon" it seems, I mean you could always check out the SM/WW apreciation page or even the superman homepage if you wish.

As someone who does check the appreciation thread and have had a refresher course on the pre-flashpoint history supplied by Last Son...I'm left with the rather distressing impression Diana really did'nt know when to stay in her lane. Some of the interactions with Clark boarder on the inappropriate, it's almost homewrecker territory..and her telling Lois Clark's her best friend is particularly grating because in the context of marriage, being the best friend tends to be the wife's job.

Like Nelliebly, I look at Diana's summerisation of her feelings in Rebirth as her finally coming full circle with the infatuation she had back in the eighties, that part of her realizing the feelings were but a simple means of escaping her more complicated problems and were more idealized than a real expression of love. Easy love is simply not the same as the truth you feel in your heart. It's an epiphany I wish the post-crisis version had the time to come to herself before Flashpoint, as it was a long time coming.

[Nelliebly]

Well, I knew it would end badly for the DCAU outside of the Bat-movies. It's returning to the "I'm not watching this shit" if D.C. can't get real and either straight up create another line for Death of Superman alongside the one they had currently, and have to erase the SM/WW couple even here. I get that fans of the original (and frankly not to my taste at all) Clois, but come on, D.C. You're shamelessly trying to get my money with tons of merchandising of Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple and do that in the same time. Seriously, stop it, it's insulting for us, and degrading for Diana.

Merchandising has little to nothing to do with any of this though.

Not everyone who purchases Superman and Wonder Woman merchandise cares if Superman and Wonder Woman are a couple. I hate Superman/Wonder Woman as a romantic concept but my husband and I might wear a Superman and Wonder Woman t-shirt on the same day. We like both characters individually and are fans. It doesn't mean we expect or want the story to make them a couple.

There is also a lot of general Trinity merchandise. That doesn't mean that the expectation is that Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman are a threesome couple. Superman and Wonder Woman are marketed together a lot to represent a male/female binary which might appeal to some fans who want to ship them but doesn't necessarily mean anyone who wants the merchandise expects them to be a couple and it's flawed to assume otherwise.

There's also merchandise for Lois and Clark. I own a Lois and Clark picture frame that DC Comics was openly marketing for Valentine's Day etc. Spider-Man is regularly marketed with Black Cat on merchandise. Batman is often marketed with Harley Quinn rather than Catwoman. Merchandise does not always tell the actual story?

Also, I fail to see how it's "Degrading" to Wonder Woman if she's simply not shown in a relationship with Superman. Death and Return is a SUPERMAN movie and it looks like Diana is going to be given a bigger role (playing Maxima's part) than she was even given in the original book. Which btw I'm thrilled about because I liked having her there in the DCEU Doomsday fight too. I would fully hope and expect that Wonder Woman will still have a lot of screen time in any upcoming Justice League movie and I hope to God she gets her OWN solo movies in this universe. But Wonder Woman not being written in a relationship with Superman is not "degrading" to her.

What's "Degrading" is the insinuation that Wonder Woman isn't meaningful in these narratives anymore if she's not with Superman and that there is no great future for her in this animated verse unless she's with him.

[Korath]

Also, I fail to see how it's "Degrading" to Wonder Woman if she's simply not shown in a relationship with Superman. Death and Return is a SUPERMAN movie and it looks like Diana is going to be given a bigger role (playing Maxima's part) than she was even given in the original book. Which btw I'm thrilled about because I liked having her there in the DCEU Doomsday fight too. I would fully hope and expect that Wonder Woman will still have a lot of screen time in any upcoming Justice League movie and I hope to God she gets her OWN solo movies in this universe. But Wonder Woman not being written in a relationship with Superman is not "degrading" to her.

What's "Degrading" is the insinuation that Wonder Woman isn't meaningful in these narratives anymore if she's not with Superman and that there is no great future for her in this animated verse unless she's with him.

It's degrading because, just like in Rebirth, Diana is thrown under the bus. I wonder if they also make her tell that she was with Clark because it was easy (when it never was) or that she is just good at sex and nothing else, like in Rucka's Rebirth garbage of a run. Probably both. WHich was false on both account, I've the issues to prove that it was neither easy, nor just sex, but a full-blown and extremely strong romance, which had to be purposefully torpedoed by Tomasi to be removed. Meanwhile, Lois (which I find insufferable because she is not even a proper character, just an arm candy suddenly able to have crazy feats out of nowhere, like using the Hellbat suit, owning the Female Furies on Apokalips or infiltrating a whole dictatorship prison without too much difficulties, to name the latest and most blatant "feats", when she is just a journalist - and no, investigative reporters aren't super-commando, that's not how it works) is propped as this awesome foundation for Superman and apparently can't be anything if she isn't with him at all time, everywhere, everytime. But she is just like the underwear on the outside : outdated in that fashion.

And you're constructing things I never said. Diana obviously can (and should) develop well enough for herself without anyone in the DCAU (or the comics, or everywhere). But the DCAU was the last place where I could find a Superman and a Wonder Woman I could care about. Despite D.C. pathetic attempt to say that Reborn Superman is also the New 52, it is not the case in comics, and I hoped that the animated movies would be able to accommodate two lines for Superman and Wonder Woman, an "official" one going with Rebirth and all, and an "Elseworld" continuing the New 52. I was wrong.

Concerning the merchandising, you are factually wrong, in that D.C. purposefully add the mentions that they are a "power couple" when putting SM/WW stuff. If they wanted them to be portrayed as friends (as they should if they didn't try to be blatantly hypocritical about the whole thing), they could marked it as "the super friends" or the "wonder friends". They don't, and I feel insulted because it seems that they see fans of the SM/WW as idiots. That's a problem, and hadn't helped me care at all about the Rebirth version of those characters.

[rpmaluki]

Without having seen the actual movie, I'd say let's not make any assumptions of how Diana will be treated just because Superman and Lois are written as being together. It would be nice to not reduce any character and their worth down to whether or not they are paired up with a certain character.

[Sacred Knight]

All I can say to fans of SM/WW, is just wait a while. It will crop up again, somewhere sometime. Not anytime soon, but eventually. Its going to be erased everywhere right now (except other merchandising, lol) to push the family concept everywhere, and there's not a lot of outside continuity projects right now. But something will happen eventually. Hell its a 100% guarantee that Miller isn't going to marry off Superman to anyone in his Year One story, so if that continues past the initial project, who knows what can happen there. But even if not there, main point is just wait a while. Its popular so it'll happen in projects not married to continuity when that starts ramping up again. And history shows that will eventually happen as well.


But obviously it was going to be erased in the AU. Their AU has to reflect comics continuity, just like they want their movies to. Everything has to sync. Its annoying but its their mindset. I've realized it was only a matter of time before they hit that so I really have no reaction to this. It was expected.

[Nelliebly]

SsupesI don't want to go off-topic for the thread by addressing every single one of your points but I am happy to talk about them over dm if you are so inclined.

What I do want to say though is that I truly am sorry that something that you loved so much was taken away from you. I do have empathy for that because that's how I felt when the new 52 hit. My recollection is that people were not that kind to us when that happened and I do not want to mirror that mistake. So I really am sorry that you are upset and I join you in hoping that Wonder Woman is portrayed very well in this film!