Death and Return of Superman movie will be set in the New 52

[rpmaluki]

Tomasi wrote that line in both the comic and now the animation. I don't think it's anything deeper than a writer liking the phrase for an emotional but tragic scene of Clark dying in the arms of the woman he loves. Had it been Lana or Lori or some other woman that meant the world to him, I wouldn't be shocked to see that line used in a similar scene. It's odd to condemn a fanbase when they had nothing to do with writing it.

[Clark_Kent]

It's too bad Tomasi isn't writing Reign, or at least according to that video he isn't. I'd have thought they'd have the same guy write both parts.

[ssupes]

Tomasi wrote that line in both the comic and now the animation. I don't think it's anything deeper than a writer liking the phrase for an emotional but tragic scene of Clark dying in the arms of the woman he loves. Had it been Lana or Lori or some other woman that meant the world to him, I wouldn't be shocked to see that line used in a similar scene. It's odd to condemn a fanbase when they had nothing to do with writing it.

I can't speak for everyone but from what I have seen the criticism has been aimed at DC animation for replacing Wonder Woman in a heartfelt scene with Lois Lane for a second time, not attacks on fandom.

[Miles To Go]

I can't speak for everyone but from what I have seen the criticism has been aimed at DC animation for replacing Wonder Woman in a heartfelt scene with Lois Lane for a second time

And with good reason, Lois is his iconic love interest, and her role in the Death of Superman story is pivotal. That fandom ought to be grateful DC Animation even bothered including Diana in the story, as she wasn't present in the original.

[rpmaluki]

I can't speak for everyone but from what I have seen the criticism has been aimed at DC animation for replacing Wonder Woman in a heartfelt scene with Lois Lane for a second time, not attacks on fandom.

But DoS is primarily a Superman/Lois story. They wanted to adapt that story and figured they could easily explain away his breakup with Diana (they certainly did it better than Rebirth/Reborn). Clark saying something heartfelt as he died in Lois' arms that is the same line he said to Diana in the "Final Days" was practically inevitable since both deaths were written by the same guy. Tomasi is the common denominator here. I don't think it has anything to do with fandoms but for some reasons it's being turned into that.

[ssupes]

And with good reason, Lois is his iconic love interest, and her role in the Death of Superman story is pivotal. That fandom ought to be grateful DC Animation even bothered including Diana in the story, as she wasn't present in the original.

Not really, the only reason she's in it is to suffer the worf effect against doomsday and to show that her and superman have broken up, fact of the matter is this was a post crisis story not a new 52 story so I don't know why they did it in the first place. And no one has to feel grateful to dc because they only did it as a business move because more people would rather see doomsday against the a team justice league rather then nobodies.

But DoS is primarily a Superman/Lois story. They wanted to adapt that story and figured they could easily explain away his breakup with Diana (they certainly did it better than Rebirth/Reborn). Clark saying something heartfelt as he died in Lois' arms that is the same line he said to Diana in the "Final Days" was practically inevitable since both deaths were written by the same guy. Tomasi is the common denominator here. I don't think it has anything to do with fandoms but for some reasons it's being turned into that.

DOS was a successful attempt to drum up sales with superman getting the snot punched out of him for a few comics and his eventual death, not anything about revealing his secret identity for the umpteenth time. And as I said before the DOS was a post crisis story where they had been dating for a fair few years rather then just happening with no explanation. Truth is we were promised a 100% retelling of the story but instead we had it transplanted into the new 52 and thus stories and even lines and have been given to others which just feels disrespectful to those that did enjoy the new 52.

[Sacred Knight]

Eh, it bugged me at first. But cooler heads reminded me that the same guy wrote both stories and it probably was an attempt to, in a small symbolic way, merge the two deaths. Which makes sense, and I fully admit I overreacted upon seeing the scene. It can still touch a nerve is all, which can happen when a bad memory of something botched comes up.

[rpmaluki]

Not really, the only reason she's in it is to suffer the worf effect against doomsday and to show that her and superman have broken up, fact of the matter is this was a post crisis story not a new 52 story so I don't know why they did it in the first place. And no one has feel grateful to dc because they only did it as a business move because more people would rather see doomsday against the a team justice league rather then nobodies.



DOS was a successful attempt to drum up sales with superman getting the snot punched out of him for a few comics and his eventual death, not anything about revealing his secret identity for the umpteenth time. And as I said before the DOS was a post crisis story where they had been dating for a fair few years rather then just happening with no explanation. Truth is we were promised a 100% retelling of the story but instead we had it transplanted into the new 52 and thus stories and even lines and have been given to others which just feels disrespectful to those that did enjoy the new 52.

Any story is relevant when it hasn't been done before and if I understand correctly, before DoS, nobody ever truly believed Superman could/would die until the comic actually came out. A story is a story.

As I said before I think this is more about the writer than the characters in the center of this supposed controversy. There's no plain right or wrong way about adapting a piece a fiction from one medium to another other than to make it entertaining and I like this movie having never read the original story. I think they wanted to adapt, not just to retell the original story verbatim without completely upending the universe they created and simply weren't ready to chuck it all aside. If this is really about WW vs Lois as a SO, apparently people do in fact break up in DCAU.

[Nelliebly]

I can't speak for everyone but from what I have seen the criticism has been aimed at DC animation for replacing Wonder Woman in a heartfelt scene with Lois Lane for a second time, not attacks on fandom.

This feels pretty hypocritical though given the circumstances.

Death and Return is an iconic and famous Lois/Clark story. One could just as easily argue (and I know people did) that even attempting to retell the story as Tomasi did in new new 52 and basically inserting Diana for Lois at that time was disrespectful. So this all feels pretty disingenuous to me. I can understand shippers being disappointed but the bottom line is that this story ALWAYS belonged to Lois.

Further, "stealing heartfelt scenes" or iconic scenes isn't really a road that I would think people would want to go down. Because if we go down that road then we have to address the reality that the cover of Justice League #12 was openly and admittedly lifted from the famous Lois/Superman For Tomorrow scene. We would have to talk about Charles Soule lifting the "Superman brings alien flowers" scene from All Star Superman. We could talk about Geoff Johns essentially just repurposing dialogue that he wrote for Lois and Clark on Smallville about the importance of the glasses sitting in the Kent farmhouse for Diana and Clark in his JL run.

At least in this case, I genuinely do think that Tomasi just liked the line and wanted to reuse it. But it feels really odd to me to focus on "replacing Wonder Woman" when the stark reality is that there were several significant moments in the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship that were openly and purposefully stolen from Lois and Clark and DC wasn't even shy about it. Jim Lee straight up told people that he borrowed the Lois/Superman artwork for his cover etc. So, while I can have sympathy for fans feeling sad, I don't remember a lot of sympathy when that stuff was happening to Lois and Clark. It feels hypocritical at best and disingenuous at worst to be indignant at DC for it now....especially when the Death of Superman is absolutely a story that belongs to Lois and Clark first and foremost and the "redo" of it in the new 52 was ::already:: something lifted and, arguably, stolen from her.

I know there are those elsewhere who were letdown to see Wonder Woman as even part of this story given she doesn't play a big role in the comic but I saw it both as a merging of her role in the previous films as well as a callback to the reality that she helped fight Doomsday in the Batman vs. Superman. I know it's Maxima and others in the original comic but it feels right to me, now, that Wonder Woman is there in Maxima's place and feels more at place where we are currently in media including the showdown in Batman vs. Superman which, while obviously a film with a lot of controversy, did find an interesting way of framing the death with Batman, Wonder Woman and Lois surrounding Superman that felt true to me.

[Nelliebly]

Any story is relevant when it hasn't been done before and if I understand correctly, before DoS, nobody ever truly believed Superman could/would die until the comic actually came out. A story is a story.

As I said before I think this is more about the writer than the characters in the center of this supposed controversy. There's no plain right or wrong way about adapting a piece a fiction from one medium to another other than to make it entertaining and I like this movie having never read the original story. I think they wanted to adapt, not just to retell the original story verbatim without completely upending the universe they created and simply weren't ready to chuck it all aside. If this is really about WW vs Lois as a SO, apparently people do in fact break up in DCAU.

The Death of Superman was a direct response to the idea that people (including fans and the public) were taking Superman for granted. It was unprecedented at the time to tell that kind of story and, as much as people like to frame it as a "stunt", the reality is that it was a rare "stunt" that actually worked as it remains one of the first comic books that many fans of that generation ever really read----including me.

[Sacred Knight]

It really had no deep meaning at the time. What it was a direct response to was the dilemma that the story they had planned to tell during that time period had to be canceled due to contractual obligations with ABC. I mean, the saga holds a special place in my heart too as it was my introduction to Superman in the comics as well. But the magical narrative behind it today just isn't the truth of what occurred. The Death of Superman was a Plan B backup, and in fact was pitched as a joke at first during the brainstorming for a replacement story to tell. It never was a statement on the world taking Superman for granted nor even a stunt in the traditional sense that they were trying to quickly raise sales. They had absolutely no clue it was going to raise a ruckus, nor intended to do so. Those are all old wives tales. They basically tripped over lightning in a bottle with the only original motivation being filling in an empty space in the schedule. Its not an emotional narrative, but its the truth of its origins.

[stargazer01]

As a fan of both Lois Lane and Wonder Woman as characters and love interests to Superman, I can see where both fandoms are coming from. I was upset at first too when I saw the New 52 merged with The Death of Superman story. It didn't feel right and I wished it had nothing to do with the N52 stories.

But I finally understood that you don't mess with Lois Lane and Clois. Whether you like it or not, Lois Lane is The main love interest for Superman in all media, and has been since the very first story. So, it is what it is and we just have to accept it or not buy it.

I really dig SuperWonder stories, I totally see the appeal and I think they work too, but not when it comes at the expense of Lois Lane in the main continuity. So, I'll be happy to see SM/WW stories as elseworlds, etc.

[rpmaluki]

People come up with ideas in the least exciting way imaginable, I think what makes DoS isn't what came before, behind the scenes but rather its execution and follow up, hence DC's supposed obsession with it since the comic came out.

[ssupes]

This feels pretty hypocritical though given the circumstances.

Death and Return is an iconic and famous Lois/Clark story. One could just as easily argue (and I know people did) that even attempting to retell the story as Tomasi did in new new 52 and basically inserting Diana for Lois at that time was disrespectful. So this all feels pretty disingenuous to me. I can understand shippers being disappointed but the bottom line is that this story ALWAYS belonged to Lois.

I don't remember anyone thinking at the time of the announcement that Diana was going to be involved, it was only when it seemed to be in the new 52 that people would have liked for continuity to stay the same rather then go back to the monopoly but many saw the writing on the wall. Honestly a lot didn't want this story anyway because it's been done to beyond death at this point

Further, "stealing heartfelt scenes" or iconic scenes isn't really a road that I would think people would want to go down. Because if we go down that road then we have to address the reality that the cover of Justice League #12 was openly and admittedly lifted from the famous Lois/Superman For Tomorrow scene. We would have to talk about Charles Soule lifting the "Superman brings alien flowers" scene from All Star Superman. We could talk about Geoff Johns essentially just repurposing dialogue that he wrote for Lois and Clark on Smallville about the importance of the glasses sitting in the Kent farmhouse for Diana and Clark in his JL run.

Didn't stop you i see, and yes there's no point in arguing in the Jim lee scene artwork even though I imagine superheroes have kissed in the air long before "for tomorrow". The flower I can because i'd say it drew more inspiration from 'for the man who has everything", Soule might have even brought that up. But yeah I think so, especially since it turned into a monster that they had to deal with. That didn't happen in all star superman or another clois moment did it?

At least in this case, I genuinely do think that Tomasi just liked the line and wanted to reuse it. But it feels really odd to me to focus on "replacing Wonder Woman" when the stark reality is that there were several significant moments in the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship that were openly and purposefully stolen from Lois and Clark and DC wasn't even shy about it. Jim Lee straight up told people that he borrowed the Lois/Superman artwork for his cover etc. So, while I can have sympathy for fans feeling sad, I don't remember a lot of sympathy when that stuff was happening to Lois and Clark. It feels hypocritical at best and disingenuous at worst to be indignant at DC for it now....especially when the Death of Superman is absolutely a story that belongs to Lois and Clark first and foremost and the "redo" of it in the new 52 was ::already:: something lifted and, arguably, stolen from her.

Has wonder woman ever stole lines from lois in animation like what happened in new frontier? Because the example you give is more tribute that you should feel happy about as a testament but the example I give just shows a lack of caring and makes people worry if DC animation were to ever announce a kingdom come what they would do there.

I know there are those elsewhere who were letdown to see Wonder Woman as even part of this story given she doesn't play a big role in the comic but I saw it both as a merging of her role in the previous films as well as a callback to the reality that she helped fight Doomsday in the Batman vs. Superman. I know it's Maxima and others in the original comic but it feels right to me, now, that Wonder Woman is there in Maxima's place and feels more at place where we are currently in media including the showdown in Batman vs. Superman which, while obviously a film with a lot of controversy, did find an interesting way of framing the death with Batman, Wonder Woman and Lois surrounding Superman that felt true to me.

As I said before, she was in this film to feel the wrath of the worf effect and she had a way better showing in BVS (that was hard for me to say). Maxima was a power house but wonder woman is supposed to be as strong as superman.

[DochaDocha]

FWIW, I never thought Tomasi gave two f's about writing S/W. It read like he was doing a job that kept him busy and delivered a paycheck instead of a project he wanted (which is something too often said about writers involved in Superman projects, justified or not). That said, "borrowing" his comic line and adding it to the movie doesn't really seem like a big deal to me, though now that I think about it, maybe it seems screwy. I mean, it's not as weird as what happened for animated New Frontier...

The bigger issue is that the movie pronounces the effect of either not having a singular vision for a series of stories from start to beginning, or not sticking to whatever plan was in place. You get no real payoff to what started in the first few movies, and sadly doesn't have the emotional kick to what I read 25+ years ago. In the end it's a decent product, but does feel like it's somewhat lacking, too.

Reign better be good... I mean, I think it will be, but if we had to sit through another DoS just for a mediocre "Reign of the Supermen" story... I should just think positive thoughts right now...