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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelchairX View Post
    Wasn't there this explanation in Austen's run that Azazel was a member of an ancient race - the opposite of Angel, which is why his blood burns Kurt? I not really a fan Azazel anyway so...
    He was trying to do the whole "supernatural stuff is actually science fiction" angle. In this case, he was trying to go for the idea that Angels, Demons and other divine and diabolical beings from the various Abrahamic religions weren't actually divine beings, they were ancient mutants who formed factions and started to war among themselves. Not a terrible idea, but one that proves difficult to do when you consider the X-Men are still supposed to be part of the Marvel Universe which has actual demons in it like Mephisto, Satannish and D'Spayre (unless they're secretly ancient mutants too). Jack Kirby's Eternals kind of had a similar problem with its characters having supposed to be the sources for the various ancient gods. It doesn't work if Thor is right there.

    But yes, rest assured, Azazel is a mutant.

  2. #17

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    Good:
    -Little Ororo picked Charles's pocket, which inadvertently led to his battle with Shadow King, which made him realize there are evil mutants in the world and there should be a force to oppose them
    -Magneto was a Holocaust survivor whose wife rejected him(while pregnant with Wanda/Pietro) when his powers manifested, making him lose faith in humanity
    -Tessa saved Charles from the Himalayas when he was first paralyzed, and she was his plant in the Hellfire Club
    -Amelia Voght as Charles's nurse in India and lover whom he almost mindwiped into following him when she was about to leave as he began founding the X-Men
    -Iceman is gay
    -(not really a retcon, more like a coming out) RicStar
    -the Cable revealed as baby Nathan Christopher Summers grown up during X-Cutioner's Song

    Bad:
    -Emma is "only 27" and was a stripper who only did bad things with the Hellfire Club because she was drunk/high and Shaw made her with physical violence
    -"Xorn" is "Magneto" under the mask
    -the Deadly Genesis team
    -Charles willfully enslaved a sentient being(Danger)
    -Wolverine's origins
    -the Weapon Plus Program
    -Mystique and Charles were married
    -it wasn't really Jean in the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix sagas
    -Maddie went full-demon-crazy and tried to kill her baby
    -throwing Bishop under the bus for Hope
    -Shatterstar's/Longshot's familial relationship
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  3. #18
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    He was trying to do the whole "supernatural stuff is actually science fiction" angle. In this case, he was trying to go for the idea that Angels, Demons and other divine and diabolical beings from the various Abrahamic religions weren't actually divine beings, they were ancient mutants who formed factions and started to war among themselves. Not a terrible idea, but one that proves difficult to do when you consider the X-Men are still supposed to be part of the Marvel Universe which has actual demons in it like Mephisto, Satannish and D'Spayre (unless they're secretly ancient mutants too). Jack Kirby's Eternals kind of had a similar problem with its characters having supposed to be the sources for the various ancient gods. It doesn't work if Thor is right there.

    But yes, rest assured, Azazel is a mutant.
    Totally mis-remembered that then- thanks for the info
    I’ve just published my very first work on ‘Archive of Our Own’, under the same name as here. It is the first chapter of ‘I Am My Own Best Friend ~ An Emma Frost Road Trip’, which focuses on Emma between the events of IvX and Secret Empire, including the White Queen going on a road trip, to try and have fun!

    You can read the story here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15795663

    I hope you enjoy it as much I did writing it!

  4. #19
    Incredible Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Worst: Phoenix was never Jean and the real Jean was asleep in the bay the whole time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    The Phoenix retcon makes me want to kill myself every time I remember it.
    Yes! Phoenix was meant to be Jean’s true potential.





    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Best, Iceman's homosexuality. Magneto's children. I loved Onslaught being Xavier betraying the X-men (but it's also one of the worst because of the explanation). Tessa being one of the first X-men.
    Worst, Onslaught further explanation. Nightcrawler's heritage. Shatterstar's parentage. The Monet/Penance thing. The twins not being Magneto's. Also, "The First X-men" series as a whole.
    Yes! Iceman being gay is amazing. And I loved learning more about Tessa.

    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Good:
    -Iceman is gay
    -(not really a retcon, more like a coming out) RicStar
    RicStar! Love them!
    Last edited by johnnysv75; 02-25-2018 at 03:15 PM.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    Yes! Phoenix was meant to be Jean’s true potential.



    !
    I don't even mean Phoenix being a separate entity. But the whole "It wasn't Jean on Claremont's run at all!" bulshit. Thank god Claremont tried his best to twist that around, and now it's barely considered.

  6. #21
    Fantastic Member Hellinoze's Avatar
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    I don't like retcons.
    For me, it's really difficult to find a good one.

    The worst is the Jean was not Phoenix retcon. It ruined the best X men saga ever.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Mike's Avatar
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    The best: Cyclops has a brother, Alex.
    Runner up: Phoenix died on the moon but not Jean.

    The worst: Cyclops has another brother, Vulcan.
    Runner up: Magneto's back story. Just doesn't jive with what Stan and Jack showed in issue #4.
    magnetoNazis.jpg

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The best: Cyclops has a brother, Alex.
    Runner up: Phoenix died on the moon but not Jean.

    The worst: Cyclops has another brother, Vulcan.
    Runner up: Magneto's back story. Just doesn't jive with what Stan and Jack showed in issue #4.
    magnetoNazis.jpg
    I know this sounds bad but to be fair those early X-Men issues are probably the worst stuff Stan and Jack ever did together. If had not been for talent after them chances are the X-Men would be in the pile of shelved teams like the original Defenders, Invaders, or Champions. Any retcons to what they came up with in their X-Men run are honestly almost always going to be better than what Stan and Jack did with the characters.

  9. #24
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    Bad: All the Phoenix stories that remove Jean's responsibility for her actions as Phoenix and turn the "Phoenix Force" into a McGuffin ball to be used by her clones/ex-husband/etc.

    All of the edgy Evil Xavier retcons, from the secret team to the living danger room.

  10. #25
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Good: Xorn is Magneto. Everyone has it listed as bad but it's a wonderful twist to the story Morrison told in New X-Men.

    Bad: Magneto is not Xorn. Felt like Claremont was just trying to undermine any lasting change.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  11. #26
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    Good: Xorn is Magneto. Everyone has it listed as bad but it's a wonderful twist to the story Morrison told in New X-Men.
    I thought it was a good twist too, however since he was decapitated, I can let the retcon slide, because we probably would have gotten something worse to bring Erik back.
    I’ve just published my very first work on ‘Archive of Our Own’, under the same name as here. It is the first chapter of ‘I Am My Own Best Friend ~ An Emma Frost Road Trip’, which focuses on Emma between the events of IvX and Secret Empire, including the White Queen going on a road trip, to try and have fun!

    You can read the story here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15795663

    I hope you enjoy it as much I did writing it!

  12. #27
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelchairX View Post
    I thought it was a good twist too, however since he was decapitated, I can let the retcon slide, because we probably would have gotten something worse to bring Erik back.
    I'm partial to the idea that Wanda brought him back, to be honest. Still wouldn't mind it being made canon.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    Everything shown so far in X-Men Grand Design is a good retcon and a great new official origin for the X-Men

  14. #29
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    I'm partial to the idea that Wanda brought him back, to be honest. Still wouldn't mind it being made canon.
    That's actually a sound idea, however, they were already hinting at the idea, of her subconsciously affecting Xorn, transforming him into a crazed Magneto wannabe.
    I’ve just published my very first work on ‘Archive of Our Own’, under the same name as here. It is the first chapter of ‘I Am My Own Best Friend ~ An Emma Frost Road Trip’, which focuses on Emma between the events of IvX and Secret Empire, including the White Queen going on a road trip, to try and have fun!

    You can read the story here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15795663

    I hope you enjoy it as much I did writing it!

  15. #30
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Best, Iceman's homosexuality. Magneto's children. I loved Onslaught being Xavier betraying the X-men (but it's also one of the worst because of the explanation). Tessa being one of the first X-men.
    Worst, Onslaught further explanation. Nightcrawler's heritage. Shatterstar's parentage. The Monet/Penance thing. The twins not being Magneto's. Also, "The First X-men" series as a whole.
    How was Onslaught a retcon?

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