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  1. #61
    Fantastic Member Shadowcat99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think that ended when Kwannon showed up in Betsy's original body and much, if not the whole thing was blamed on her. But it has been so long since I have seen it referenced in anything other than fanfic I'm not really sure myself.
    That's right!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dementia5 View Post
    Yeah, I remember that. Betsy and Jean had a nasty little confrontation over it as well.

    Not sure it counts as a retcon as much as a “let’s just conveniently forget this ever happened, okay?” If they had specifically brought it up again to deny its validity in some way (“I was being mind controlled” or “it was all a dream” or “UV rays from Venus reflected off a weather balloon onto some swamp gas”), that would be a retcon.
    Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too. I couldn't think of anything else to add to the dialogue because everyone else already suggested the ones I could think of, lol.

  2. #62
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    The retcons around Jean Grey and the PF are confusing and dumb, I think it's best to go with the original intention of PF being an entity that merged/bonded with JG instead of outright replacing or simulating her
    But wasn’t the original intention that Jean became a being of pure psionic energy and recreated herself as the Phoenix?

    In UXM 137 Jean talks about the Phoenix as a separate entity, but I think that is the first time that is mentioned. So that in itself could be the first Phoenix retcon, maybe? But I always read that line as Jean looking at the Phoenix philosophically. Mind you, I was 10 years old when I read the Phoenix saga for the first time so maybe I missed a few things. :-)

    I know that Byrne considered Phoenix a separate being, perhaps due to the quote in 137? But I think that Claremont’s original intention was just that Jean became more powerful by herself.

    An entity of pure thought:


    Separate entity?

  3. #63
    JSA Member Cat's Avatar
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    What they did to Bishop post-Messiah Complex is easily my number one.

    Then in no particular order: I'd prefer Polaris be unrelated to Magneto.

    Xorn - where to even begin?!

    The 05 being brought to the present day. It just went horribly well, and they've well and truly outstayed their welcome.

    Romulus and all that nonsense. Ugh.

    Best is, as has been said, separating Jean from the Phoenix. Yes, it takes the sting out of the DPS a little, but the results far outweigh that inconvenience.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    I'd list a best as Deadpool's daughter, Ellie. I tthought she was a good addition to his life & development to his character.

  5. #65
    Jubilant Member Dementia5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat99 View Post
    Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too. I couldn't think of anything else to add to the dialogue because everyone else already suggested the ones I could think of, lol.
    Yeah, I can’t think of any blatant retcons that haven’t already been mentioned either, but Marvel has certainly done the “let’s not mention it again and maybe they’ll forget it” thing you mentioned on several occasions as well (which proves that they don’t truly understand Internet fandom).

    The one that (naturally) sticks out in my mind is Jubilee’s mutant ability to mask herself from telepathic detection. This was hinted at on and off from her initial days in the Outback base (Psylocke couldn’t detect her presence the whole time she was there) right up until Operation Zero Tolerance (Bastion tries to sneak up on her in the woods, but is shocked to find that she knew he was there despite him psionically masking himself), but was never mentioned again afterwards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    Yer bonkers and you need a sandwich.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dementia5 View Post
    Yeah, I can’t think of any blatant retcons that haven’t already been mentioned either, but Marvel has certainly done the “let’s not mention it again and maybe they’ll forget it” thing you mentioned on several occasions as well (which proves that they don’t truly understand Internet fandom).

    The one that (naturally) sticks out in my mind is Jubilee’s mutant ability to mask herself from telepathic detection. This was hinted at on and off from her initial days in the Outback base (Psylocke couldn’t detect her presence the whole time she was there) right up until Operation Zero Tolerance (Bastion tries to sneak up on her in the woods, but is shocked to find that she knew he was there despite him psionically masking himself), but was never mentioned again afterwards.
    Ah, like how Nightcrawler became invisible in shadow, but that was forgotten about.
    I’ve just published my very first work on ‘Archive of Our Own’, under the same name as here. It is the first chapter of ‘I Am My Own Best Friend ~ An Emma Frost Road Trip’, which focuses on Emma between the events of IvX and Secret Empire, including the White Queen going on a road trip, to try and have fun!

    You can read the story here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15795663

    I hope you enjoy it as much I did writing it!

  7. #67
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    Best: Magneto's WW2 backstory and Polaris, Wanda and Pietro being his children.

    Worst: Wanda and Pietro are not Magneto's children. The Phoenix being buried in conflicting retcons.

  8. #68
    Jubilant Member Dementia5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelchairX View Post
    Ah, like how Nightcrawler became invisible in shadow, but that was forgotten about.
    Exactly. I’d argue that some of Marvel’s worst plot sins aren’t retcons, but forgotten character points (done deliberately or not).
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dementia5 View Post
    Exactly. I’d argue that some of Marvel’s worst plot sins aren’t retcons, but forgotten character points (done deliberately or not).
    Many writers have forgotten how the powers of minor characters work.

    Right now, in Gold, we have Guggenheim treating Mesmero as a Telepath, when he is an Hypnotist, he can do many things, obey him, make you see something else, install mental blocks that work on command, convince you of something, but he can't read minds or fight telepaths in the astral plane.

    The same goes for Karma (possession of other people's minds) or Empath (controlling emotions)

    They have been treated as proper telepaths by recent writers of the last decade. Karma's power originally was just putting another person to sleep and taking control of their mind and body. She couldn't communicate telepathically. She had to take control of Cannonball's body, make him write something with shaving cream on the mirror, and stop possesing him, to communicate with him from a distance.
    And also, once Illyana (with her immunite to telepathy demon body) refused to leave her room, and Charles made Karma possess her to make her open the door, because Charles couldnt do it (Illyana was immune to telepathy back then).

  10. #70
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    Many writers have forgotten how the powers of minor characters work.

    Right now, in Gold, we have Guggenheim treating Mesmero as a Telepath, when he is an Hypnotist, he can do many things, obey him, make you see something else, install mental blocks that work on command, convince you of something, but he can't read minds or fight telepaths in the astral plane.

    The same goes for Karma (possession of other people's minds) or Empath (controlling emotions)

    They have been treated as proper telepaths by recent writers of the last decade. Karma's power originally was just putting another person to sleep and taking control of their mind and body. She couldn't communicate telepathically. She had to take control of Cannonball's body, make him write something with shaving cream on the mirror, and stop possesing him, to communicate with him from a distance.
    And also, once Illyana (with her immunite to telepathy demon body) refused to leave her room, and Charles made Karma possess her to make her open the door, because Charles couldnt do it (Illyana was immune to telepathy back then).
    Xavier early on commented on Karma having potential to have one of the strongest mutant minds. One can treat the growth/expansion of her psychic abilities as her reaching said potential with age and experience

  11. #71
    Mighty Member WheelchairX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dementia5 View Post
    Exactly. I’d argue that some of Marvel’s worst plot sins aren’t retcons, but forgotten character points (done deliberately or not).
    When Ellis forgot how old Kitty was in Excalibur and made her date Pete Wisdom, comes to mind.
    I’ve just published my very first work on ‘Archive of Our Own’, under the same name as here. It is the first chapter of ‘I Am My Own Best Friend ~ An Emma Frost Road Trip’, which focuses on Emma between the events of IvX and Secret Empire, including the White Queen going on a road trip, to try and have fun!

    You can read the story here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/15795663

    I hope you enjoy it as much I did writing it!

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    Many writers have forgotten how the powers of minor characters work.

    Right now, in Gold, we have Guggenheim treating Mesmero as a Telepath, when he is an Hypnotist, he can do many things, obey him, make you see something else, install mental blocks that work on command, convince you of something, but he can't read minds or fight telepaths in the astral plane.

    The same goes for Karma (possession of other people's minds) or Empath (controlling emotions)

    They have been treated as proper telepaths by recent writers of the last decade. Karma's power originally was just putting another person to sleep and taking control of their mind and body. She couldn't communicate telepathically. She had to take control of Cannonball's body, make him write something with shaving cream on the mirror, and stop possesing him, to communicate with him from a distance.
    And also, once Illyana (with her immunite to telepathy demon body) refused to leave her room, and Charles made Karma possess her to make her open the door, because Charles couldnt do it (Illyana was immune to telepathy back then).
    I do agree it can seem sloppy when these related but distinct ability sets get conflated. But on the other hand, you gotta give writers a break there are SO MANY back issues and noone can possibly have read and remember all of those
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  13. #73
    Jubilant Member Dementia5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I do agree it can seem sloppy when these related but distinct ability sets get conflated. But on the other hand, you gotta give writers a break there are SO MANY back issues and noone can possibly have read and remember all of those
    Yeah, but in a professional organization who literally own these characters as their intellectual property, you’d think they’d at least write that sh1t down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
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  14. #74
    Fantastic Member Shadowcat99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dementia5 View Post
    Exactly. I’d argue that some of Marvel’s worst plot sins aren’t retcons, but forgotten character points (done deliberately or not).
    TOTALLY!!!!

    And you're so right about the forgotten Jubilee power. I hope that they'll address that some day.

  15. #75
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Why doesn't any of these companies keep detailed notes one their characters on what they can or cannot do and what happened in the old stories? Then again Alan Moore was right comics especially superhero comics need a more flexible approach to continuity if only Twilight of the Superheroes was published it had a plan to allow a more flexible continuity. And then writers could just do away with what stood in the way of their stories a lot easier and fans get some degree of stability everyone wins.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 02-26-2018 at 11:34 AM.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

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