Should Superman be outright best at anything?

[Agent Z]

I was also very happily surprised that "Justice League", whatever it's failings, put Superman back to being the most powerful at the abilities he has.

And of course there's that complaint from people who don't like Superman and never under any circumstances will that he's too powerful while simultaneously claiming that every character they like more would beat him and how that other characters is the most powerful ever including the Flash with the way faster and IMP and speed steal but that's not overpowered.

GodOfBoredom said:

Exactly this. If he's not the most powerful at everything in his power set, then why is he even called Superman?

If the Flash is overwhelmingly faster and the Flash's IMP beats Superman's durability and the speed steal just makes it even worse, then the Flash is the ultimate guy who beats everybody else and is Superman. I'd rather say that the Flash's speed steal is what makes the Flash as fast or a little bit faster, just enough to barely avoid Superman's punches and survive if there was ever a situation where Superman and he were fighting for real.

Likewise, if he isn't the strongest, fastest and most durable by a considerable degree, if Wonder Woman, as many of fans want to insist, is faster, about as durable and only a fraction less strength, then she's Superman/ woman without the weaknesses to Kryptonite and less resistance to magic and she also has all the magic weapons and devices and vastly greater fighting skills.

The Martian Manhunter, if he's as strong, fast and durable is just Superman with telepathy, shapeshifting, etc, etc., etc. Yet there seems little complaint that the MM is too powerful "because he's not a boyscout".

And let's not forget Batman and the need to dumb down Superman and play him like a moron who relies only on his powers (and then proceed to totally ignore those powers anyway) so Batman can look good because it's all about making Batman look good.

The more I think about it, the more I'm amazed by and appreciate "JL" at least putting Superman back to being the most powerful hero by quite a bit. I know someone will insist that's another reason it failed but most of the stuff involving Superman seems to have been a plus to a majority of people. I've noticed in the advertising in stores that they are really pushing the fact that Superman is in the movie, compensating for their previous advertising mistakes.



I don't personally like to argue "Creator's intent" because the intent of Wonder Woman's creator was that she be the equal of Superman and so on but I don't perceive the general public demanding that from her or expecting it the way they do with Superman although comic boards specific to a particular character are a different matter.

He was basically meant to be able to stand up to the most powerful thing anyone could throw at him. At first, a bursting shell. Later, even an atomic bomb and anything other heroes or villains could throw at him.

He needs to be the strongest and most durable by a significant degree and very close to the fastest if not quite. He needs to be smart. That's not to say Batman can't be smarter and undeniably a better detective. But that's different than turning Superman into Worf from Star Trek where you set him up as the toughest guy around but then have him job to other people to establish how they are even more awesome.

Things are always going to be subject to human perceptions. One person reads the fight Rucka wrote as Wonder Woman gaining a clear victory while another perceives it as her barely surviving and using an attack he is vulnerable to and it still could only wound him enough to delay him for a few seconds.

But Batman being smarter, Wonder Woman a more skilled fighter, the Flash a bit faster and the MM having a laundry list of more powers is fine as that's what allows them to have any chance of even surviving against Superman. Or that's my perception of how it should be.

Mind you, I think all Kryptonians should be on that list of more powerful than everybody else at the powers they have with other heroes having other things going for them and Superman being number one among Kryptonians in power levels.

It actually rather annoyed me when they were doing that WW III thing about Black Adam being so invincible because, if I remember correctly, he either got Powergirl to back off or manhandled her. The implication was clearly that she's going to get badly hurt if she messes with him and I was feeling that, come on, she's a Kryptonian. She should at least have the edge on him in strength, durability and speed.

I also agree with Jimmy. Stop apologizing for Superman, for his being the most powerful and the most noble. Embrace what he is and was meant to be: the greatest hero the world, indeed the universe, has ever known.

Black Adam uses magic which can hurt Kryptonians. Hell, Shazam has beaten Superman before.

I was under the impression he was a hero because of altruistic nature not his ability to throw a mountain into space.

[Osiris-Rex]

It should be Supergirl > Superman > Wonder Woman > Martian Manhunter > everyone else.

[Powerboy]

Black Adam uses magic which can hurt Kryptonians. Hell, Shazam has beaten Superman before.

I was under the impression he was a hero because of altruistic nature not his ability to throw a mountain into space.

True the Black Adam thing can be justified by magic.

But why doesn't that apply to every hero on the face of the Earth? Why does it only apply to Superman?

Green Lantern can theoretically do anything. He survives the explosions of planets. Why isn't he overpowered? All he needs is his altruistic nature.

Why isn't the Martian Manhunter overpowered? He has every power Superman has and a dozen more.

That "All that matters is an altruistic nature" could work if we were talking about Captain America. He is, in my way of thinking, the Marvel equivalent to Superman, not Thor or Hyperion and I think that because the nature of the character does matter more. But Superman is also, well, Superman. Of course he is a hero first and foremost because of his nature but that's just sometimes used as an excuse by people who seem to throw that "overpowefred" nonsense around that doesn't seem to apply to anybody else.

[Sacred Knight]

He should be outright the strongest being in the DCU that isn't a god. Period. Stuff like speed, intelligence, I get the reasons for making those more reasonable, due to the shared universe. But strength? Raw power? Number one with a bullet.

And I'm not even willing to make concessions to Superman family ideas. No Supergirl being stronger. No Jon having the potential to be more powerful. Screw all that. Its Kal-El, then its everyone else.

[Powerboy]

It should be Supergirl > Superman > Wonder Woman > Martian Manhunter > everyone else.

Okay, I'll play. Why should the derivative character that has never reached his levels of popularity and wasn't even around for a long while after he started be the height of the power level?

[Ra-El]

They should just tone down his weakness. Be vulnerable to magic is one thing, but be nauseated just because he entered a room where a magical ritual was made hours before is bullshit. Red sun radiation should take his poweres only when it was the only source of power, if his fight outside on the middle of day a a lantern of red sun shouldn't made him useless. And kryptonite should hurt him, be like poison by radiation, not depower him like some writers do.

[Barbatos666]

It should be Supergirl > Superman > Wonder Woman > Martian Manhunter > everyone else.

It should be Martian>Orion >Superman= Shazam= Captain Atom> Wonder Woman.
Flash is an anomaly. He could beat them all but he's not the most powerful.

[Agent Z]

True the Black Adam thing can be justified by magic.

But why doesn't that apply to every hero on the face of the Earth? Why does it only apply to Superman?

Green Lantern can theoretically do anything. He survives the explosions of planets. Why isn't he overpowered? All he needs is his altruistic nature.

Why isn't the Martian Manhunter overpowered? He has every power Superman has and a dozen more.

That "All that matters is an altruistic nature" could work if we were talking about Captain America. He is, in my way of thinking, the Marvel equivalent to Superman, not Thor or Hyperion and I think that because the nature of the character does matter more. But Superman is also, well, Superman. Of course he is a hero first and foremost because of his nature but that's just sometimes used as an excuse by people who seem to throw that "overpowefred" nonsense around that doesn't seem to apply to anybody else.

It does actually.

[Powerboy]

It does actually.

Not even remotely.

[GodofBoredom]

Thematically, Superman has always been about how ultimate power doesn't have to corrupt.

How he could take over the world, but chooses to inspire it.

How he could force it to be the way he thinks it should be, but would rather be a symbol of hope and help everybody reach their potential.

Ultimate power brings ultimate responsability.

Red Son, for example, is how it would look if Superman would try to force it to be how he wants. That's why Luthor asks him at the end "Why don't you bottle the whole world?" showing he was closer to Brainiac, an all-powerful alien, than a human. It's also why some stories flirt with evil Superman taking over the world.

Superman is not Captain America. Power is an intrinsic power of him thematically.

[JackDaw]

It does actually.

80 percent (at least!) of all super heroes are altruistic...it’s really not a point of difference.

[Agent Z]

80 percent (at least!) of all super heroes are altruistic...it’s really not a point of difference.

What does this have to do with my comment?

[JackDaw]

What does this have to do with my comment?

Doesn’t it suggest that it’s not enough for Superman to just be altruistic? (Certainly if aim is to make him the “go to man” for other heroes.)

[Kuwagaton]

Doomsday was ripped apart by him. Orion wasn't as strong as Superman. He never fought First Born, but characters weaker than him fought and beat him. You don't think a stronger, faster being who hits much harder can replicate it? Helspont was more powerful, he backhanded Supes to the moon and gave him a concussion. H'el was a legit teambuster. All these guys are villains, I was comparing him with other heroes. Didn't mean he was stronger than everyone in the DCU.

Doomsday was ripped apart in his virus state, but when they met in the SMWW arc, Superman didn't believe he could handle it alone.

As for them being villains, well, why would Superman be about exceeding other heroes over villains? Why is it hero vs hero? Maybe they claim to be his equal in another series, where Superman has no equal in his own series. Who cares, then?

Edit : I don't remember what comic that was from. There seems to be a general consensus in battle forums that he was faster during that era. Has SA Flash ever broken infinity (whatever that thing is) with sheer speed or something ridiculous like that?

I certainly don't know much about Flash, but if it's something that was done by speed I don't know if it's something refuted by Superman's feats.

And I'm not citing you for this, since it doesn't seem like a complaint, but it's funny how often people lament not having that Superman when they don't even recall him.

The Martian Manhunter, if he's as strong, fast and durable is just Superman with telepathy, shapeshifting, etc, etc., etc. Yet there seems little complaint that the MM is too powerful "because he's not a boyscout".

For all the complaints about other heroes, Superman is more popular than all but Batman. This is just... kicking MM when he's down, lol.

And let's not forget Batman and the need to dumb down Superman and play him like a moron who relies only on his powers (and then proceed to totally ignore those powers anyway) so Batman can look good because it's all about making Batman look good.

It's about not telling a boring story. If Superman wins like he's supposed to, that's not interesting because it's exactly what we expect. It doesn't matter how powerful Superman is, this is likely to happen if they fight at all. I guess we should be thankful that hero vs hero, besides the "meet and misunderstand" thing, wasn't in style so many years ago.

But think of the amount of people who are likely to pay to see a 90 year old man beat prime Mike Tyson instead of the other way around.

Stop apologizing for Superman, for his being the most powerful and the most noble. Embrace what he is and was meant to be: the greatest hero the world, indeed the universe, has ever known.

Who's apologizing for Superman, rather than just telling a different kind of story?

Superman just does the Impossible. Period.

Lifting a Harley overhead is impossible.

[SiegePerilous02]

Black Adam uses magic which can hurt Kryptonians. Hell, Shazam has beaten Superman before..

Captain Marvel and Black Adam absolute should be dead even with Superman and able to beat him.

But they should be on Earth-5 as that world's equivalent of the archetype they both represent. There is no reason to have them on the same Earth, they just undermine each other's status as the most powerful hero on Earth. And Billy will always get the short end of the stick from DC compared to Superman. And seeing as how they treat Superman like relative crap for a character of his importance, that's even sadder.

I was under the impression he was a hero because of altruistic nature not his ability to throw a mountain into space.

Nobody here has said his altruistic nature isn't important. It's just been stressed that that is not the only component. That one aspect is shared by almost every major superhero. Focusing only on that is boring as it gets.