Should Superman be outright best at anything?

[Powerboy]

It's about not telling a boring story. If Superman wins like he's supposed to, that's not interesting because it's exactly what we expect. It doesn't matter how powerful Superman is, this is likely to happen if they fight at all. I guess we should be thankful that hero vs hero, besides the "meet and misunderstand" thing, wasn't in style so many years ago.

But think of the amount of people who are likely to pay to see a 90 year old man beat prime Mike Tyson instead of the other way around.

Interestingly, I wasn't even talking about Superman and Batman fighting each other but about them working together and them having to dumb down Superman. There was a time when they worked together but Superman clearly came across as superior because the writer didn't hold him back.

I think now the expectation is completely that the writer will dumb him down and the average reader doesn't even think about what they are in their respective titles. If I hear about a crossover today, I have almost zero expectation that Superman will be operating at his top form. I fully expect that Batman will be. That is totally predictable. Today, the surprise would be if Superman was in top form and resolved a majority of the problem, physically and mentally, himself.

And I am glad there was a time when heroes met each other to work as a team rather than fight each other. For a period of time, whenever you had Superman and Batman team up, whether against Lex Luthor and the Joker or whoever, I (and likely Superman) was more worried about what Batman would do to stab him in the back than what the villains would do. I'd much rather get back to them being a team. In other words, "Batman Meets Superman" rather than "Batman versus Superman".

[Kuwagaton]

To some it seems like even having them team up is dumbing down Superman, who "needs no one," I guess. I'd say the days of the composite Superman stories at least, where he was too much for just Superman and yet Batman hung in there, made a point about how being allies doesn't work that way. It's not about who is more ___ than who. A story that betrays that is still Vs. in spirit even if it doesn't come to blows.

And despite the pre-flashpoint era skewing the average, I think Batman and Superman work as a really sweet team more than they punch each other and make salty comments. But maybe that doesn't really attract as much attention.

[Osiris-Rex]

Okay, I'll play. Why should the derivative character that has never reached his levels of popularity and wasn't even around for a long while after he started be the height of the power level?

We are basing power levels on popularity and creation order? If we were going by popularity it would be Batman > Superman > Wonder Woman. Creation order Superman > Batman > Wonder Woman.
But even with the most outlandish of plot armor, no way is Batman anywhere near Supergirl's power level.

It should be Martian>Orion >Superman= Shazam= Captain Atom> Wonder Woman.
Flash is an anomaly. He could beat them all but he's not the most powerful.

Supergirl isn't in there? Why not?

[GodofBoredom]

Supergirl isn't in there? Why not?

That list is wrong, but Wonder Woman is roughly as strong and fast as Supergirl, but with magical weapons and high level fighting skill.

If she's the last one, Supergirl doesn't belong there.

In terms of overall power, it should be Superman > Orion > Shazam/Wonder Woman > Martian Manhunter > Supergirl

In terms of strength, it should be Superman > Orion > Supergirl/Wonder Woman/Shazam > Martian Manhunter

[Ra-El]

We are basing power levels on popularity and creation order? If we were going by popularity it would be Batman > Superman > Wonder Woman. Creation order Superman > Batman > Wonder Woman.
But even with the most outlandish of plot armor, no way is Batman anywhere near Supergirl's power level.



Supergirl isn't in there? Why not?

repeated post

[Ra-El]

We are basing power levels on popularity and creation order? If we were going by popularity it would be Batman > Superman > Wonder Woman. Creation order Superman > Batman > Wonder Woman.
But even with the most outlandish of plot armor, no way is Batman anywhere near Supergirl's power level.



Supergirl isn't in there? Why not?

Why would Supergirl be stronger than Superman? They are both kryptonians, affected by the yellow sun in the same way, if we take humans as a base. he is stronger than her, as any 225lb man in good shape is stronger than a 150lb teenage girl. Is like comparing a heavyweight boxer with the teenage champion of karate.

[GodofBoredom]

Why would Supergirl be stronger than Superman? They are both kryptonians, affected by the yellow sun in the same way, if we take humans as a base. he is stronger than her, as any 225lb of muscle man is stronger than a 150lb teenage girl.

Not to mention kryptonians are stronger the more they stay under sunlight, and Superman has 30+ years on her, considering he grew up on Earth, and she's been on it for just a few years.

Hell, she is closer to his son's age, than him.

[SpideyCeo]

Shouldn't Supes be powerful enough to have his own alien biology match and evolve adaptive counter measures to counter any superhero/or force he faces in a fight? Pretty sure Superman is his own cosmic being/force embodiment if writers gave a damn about his strengths more than what he needs to be balanced with in order to weaken him. Superman and magic for one thing could correlate as raw energy for Superman's hidden psychic side, he can match laws of relativity via limited gravity generation and spatial manipulation with some alien neuron in himself that he naturally can access when exposed to sun and star radiation(which is all the time), and finally he can match gods and cosmic emodiments by being his own gestalt engine which manipulates is dna on a cosmic/universal level and puts him on God Emperor of mankind levels of psychic potential.

Look at the tyranids, they work of pure sci fi logic and they are established as demon killing monsters that are immune to supernatural beings and rreality warping, Superman got be like that, not just stronger than anyone but not real reality warping beings.

[manduck37]

He should be outright the strongest being in the DCU that isn't a god. Period. Stuff like speed, intelligence, I get the reasons for making those more reasonable, due to the shared universe. But strength? Raw power? Number one with a bullet.

And I'm not even willing to make concessions to Superman family ideas. No Supergirl being stronger. No Jon having the potential to be more powerful. Screw all that. Its Kal-El, then its everyone else.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Superman should absolutely be the best as something. To me it was always that he was the strongest and toughest around. Having the power he has and not letting it corrupt him adds another layer of complexity to Superman that goes beyond the superhero altruism. So to me, Superman should be strongest by leaps and bounds.

[stephens2177]

Superman has the basic superhero powerset,and imo he should be top dog in all those abilities.

If any other hero wants to stand and equal Superman,then they need to bring their brains,fighting skill,extra powers,or magic at him.

Notice I didn't say superman should have no challenges or equals,just that to be his equal,you need to bring something besifes abilities superman already has.

[Shadowedeyes]

Admittedly a challenge given the amount of abilities Superman has...

I'm mostly joking, but I do feel bad for Shazam/Captain Marvel in that regard.

[Jackalope89]

There's a fine line for Superman, in my opinion. On one side, you have a powerful being that, despite his powers, doesn't lord over anyone nor does he magically know everything, but is still quite bright. On the other side, you have a Marty Stue character, which was basically Silver Age Superman in a nutshell (and one I see from time to time in fanfictions). He has no faults, knows everything, faster than Flash, knows everyone's secrets, etc.

The latter is not my cup of tea. For any character, really.

One way I look at it, in series where he and Batman (and likewise, their sons) share considerable screen time, is that Clark is the optimist to Bruce's pessimism.

[Lvenger]

If the Hulk can be referred to as the physically strongest hero on Marvel Earth in a Marvel guidebook, I see no reason why Superman shouldn't be the strongest, toughest hero in the DCU.

[Ra-El]

Admittedly a challenge given the amount of abilities Superman has...

I'm mostly joking, but I do feel bad for Shazam/Captain Marvel in that regard.

Not reason to feel bad for Shazam, he can do magic. In the New52 he once made a ping pong table appears on the Watch Tower. He can make a lightning bolt stronge enough to hurt Superman.

[Ra-El]

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Superman should absolutely be the best as something. To me it was always that he was the strongest and toughest around. Having the power he has and not letting it corrupt him adds another layer of complexity to Superman that goes beyond the superhero altruism. So to me, Superman should be strongest by leaps and bounds.

I can deal with Superman having contenders in strength, but he should be definitely the toughest, with the exception of kryptonite if something is strong enough to put him down it should be more than enough to take anyone down. I wasn't a fan of Hitch's JL, but one thing I liked in the first arc was that it was made pretty clear that Superman was the only one capable of going to the Earth's core.