Mockingbird Appreciation

[lilyinblue]

So, any benefit of the doubt that Chelsea Cain got regarding the awful retcon is absolutely gone now.

"What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

Yes, such a ridiculous story, considering that it keeps happening in real life, and we're finding women after they've been held for years...

Poor Bobbi, she deserved better.

It seems like she focused so much on THAT moment that she didn't take into consideration just what it does to the rest of the story. Letting Slade die in the original version is revenge, it's taking back her freedom and self. Letting Slade die in Cain's version is... sociopathic. She let him die to what? Cover up her infidelity? I really don't know if she understands that THIS is what a lot of people were objecting to.

Comics can be a weird medium to step into writing. Marvel seems to be reaching out to grab writers from very diverse backgrounds. This is great but... when you have a ton of fans which encyclopedia-level of knowledge about the characters and the universe and writers who come into the project not knowing much, problems like this happen. I think this is one of those cases where editorial seriously dropped the ball. This is their job.

[Captain Wessex]

well said, Lily.

[JeanGreyForever]

I'm completely ignoring this retcon.

[WonderBoy]

I'm completely ignoring this retcon.

Likewise, moving forward I really doubt it'll be touched on.

[DJ1107]

So, any benefit of the doubt that Chelsea Cain got regarding the awful retcon is absolutely gone now.

"What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

Yes, such a ridiculous story, considering that it keeps happening in real life, and we're finding women after they've been held for years...

Poor Bobbi, she deserved better.

Eisner nominee ladies & gentlemen.

[Soulsword323]

So, any benefit of the doubt that Chelsea Cain got regarding the awful retcon is absolutely gone now.

"What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

Yes, such a ridiculous story, considering that it keeps happening in real life, and we're finding women after they've been held for years...

Poor Bobbi, she deserved better.

I saw this yesterday, and I CONTINUE to be disappointed. Her reasoning is just ludicrous and does more harm then good.

It seems like she focused so much on THAT moment that she didn't take into consideration just what it does to the rest of the story. Letting Slade die in the original version is revenge, it's taking back her freedom and self. Letting Slade die in Cain's version is... sociopathic. She let him die to what? Cover up her infidelity? I really don't know if she understands that THIS is what a lot of people were objecting to.

Comics can be a weird medium to step into writing. Marvel seems to be reaching out to grab writers from very diverse backgrounds. This is great but... when you have a ton of fans which encyclopedia-level of knowledge about the characters and the universe and writers who come into the project not knowing much, problems like this happen. I think this is one of those cases where editorial seriously dropped the ball. This is their job.

QFT

[klynn]

So, any benefit of the doubt that Chelsea Cain got regarding the awful retcon is absolutely gone now.

"What if, in fact, she went willingly? What if she just cheated on Hawkeye? What if this ridiculous story, of this grown woman being kidnapped and drugged and held for months, is just a story that a jilted lover tells himself?"

Yes, such a ridiculous story, considering that it keeps happening in real life, and we're finding women after they've been held for years...

Poor Bobbi, she deserved better.

It seems like she focused so much on THAT moment that she didn't take into consideration just what it does to the rest of the story. Letting Slade die in the original version is revenge, it's taking back her freedom and self. Letting Slade die in Cain's version is... sociopathic. She let him die to what? Cover up her infidelity? I really don't know if she understands that THIS is what a lot of people were objecting to.

Comics can be a weird medium to step into writing. Marvel seems to be reaching out to grab writers from very diverse backgrounds. This is great but... when you have a ton of fans which encyclopedia-level of knowledge about the characters and the universe and writers who come into the project not knowing much, problems like this happen. I think this is one of those cases where editorial seriously dropped the ball. This is their job.

Yes, this was definitely the wrong story to question the male point of view on. I quite frankly, as a woman, found it disgusting for Cain to negate the rape. THIS is point of view that's often applied to women, that their rape is in their heads, that they are twisting the male's actions/intentions. Really, I'm shocked this came from a feminist. This completely soured the whole run for me.

I'm not really liking the outreach for writers who are not comic book writers by Marvel. Love or hate Bendis, Slott or others but they understand and love the medium. Outside writers seem to want to change things up with their own agendas.

[Muffin Crud]

Good lord, she really needs to just stop. Like everyone else disgusted with this point of view, how does it make sense? It just makes Bobbi a cold blooded killer!

I truly wish the series only went to issue 5 at this point.

[Dermie]

Yes, this was definitely the wrong story to question the male point of view on. I quite frankly, as a woman, found it disgusting for Cain to negate the rape. THIS is point of view that's often applied to women, that their rape is in their heads, that they are twisting the male's actions/intentions. Really, I'm shocked this came from a feminist.

Exactly my reaction as well. As a feminist I am absolutely disgusted by this (attempted) retcon and it shocks me that she would think this was a good idea and not see the harm in it, both to the character of Bobbi and to the very point she is trying to make. She took a story with a female hero taking back her own power, rescuing herself and defeating her attacker herself...and tried to twist it into an unfaithful woman murdering her lover to hide her infidelity, because supposedly that is a more positive role model for a woman than a rape survivor who saves herself. Disgusting.

The good news is that there is nothing in the story that actually definitively states that is what happened, and since there are literally decades of follow-up stories dealing with the fallout of the Phantom Rider incident that contradict it, this attempted retcon won't take hold. It contradicts both continuity AND character--nevermind good taste--so I expect Marvel will just let it quietly fade away and not mention it again.

[klynn]

Exactly my reaction as well. As a feminist I am absolutely disgusted by this (attempted) retcon and it shocks me that she would think this was a good idea and not see the harm in it, both to the character of Bobbi and to the very point she is trying to make. She took a story with a female hero taking back her own power, rescuing herself and defeating her attacker herself...and tried to twist it into an unfaithful woman murdering her lover to hide her infidelity, because supposedly that is a more positive role model for a woman than a rape survivor who saves herself. Disgusting.

The good news is that there is nothing in the story that actually definitively states that is what happened, and since there are literally decades of follow-up stories dealing with the fallout of the Phantom Rider incident that contradict it, this attempted retcon won't take hold. It contradicts both continuity AND character--nevermind good taste--so I expect Marvel will just let it quietly fade away and not mention it again.

But WHY did they publish it in the first place. Why is Marvel so enamored with novelists and YA writers that they let them spit on established characters and story lines?

[lilyinblue]

But WHY did they publish it in the first place. Why is Marvel so enamored with novelists and YA writers that they let them spit on established characters and story lines?

I think a lot of the time it boils down to simply... we, as the fans, are actually paying way more attention to these details than they are. Like I said above, editorial really isn't doing the job they should be here.

[WonderBoy]

I think a lot of the time it boils down to simply... we, as the fans, are actually paying way more attention to these details than they are. Like I said above, editorial really isn't doing the job they should be here.

Exactly, it seems that often the fans of these books know more than the editors themselves do these days. While I'm too young to remember myself, from reading old comics I miss back when editors would put little notes in about continuity, showing that they did have a strong knowledge and kept an eye out for it, which seems to have gone out of style now.

[Captain Wessex]

^that though, seems to be dependent on the editor. Ultimates Squared has had little things in the back telling you which issues to go look up on Marvel Unlimited to read the back story to some of the characters or events the comic is referencing.

The one fact I cling to in all this mess is that Bobbi is repeatedly stated in the letters page to be 'an unreliable narrator'. So clearly, she is full of shit in these stories she is telling. I actually want someone to outright state she'd been on drugs or something to abandon and foresake the series.

[lilyinblue]

The one fact I cling to in all this mess is that Bobbi is repeatedly stated in the letters page to be 'an unreliable narrator'. So clearly, she is full of shit in these stories she is telling. I actually want someone to outright state she'd been on drugs or something to abandon and foresake the series.

I won't forsake the series. I LOVED the first arc and I will continue to hold onto that. I absolutely think that arc deserves the Eisner nomination. But yes... I'll hang onto that 'unreliable narrator' thing too and just assume she was twisting stuff up in her brain for this one moment that otherwise ruined some really good work.

[WonderBoy]

^that though, seems to be dependent on the editor. Ultimates Squared has had little things in the back telling you which issues to go look up on Marvel Unlimited to read the back story to some of the characters or events the comic is referencing.

The one fact I cling to in all this mess is that Bobbi is repeatedly stated in the letters page to be 'an unreliable narrator'. So clearly, she is full of shit in these stories she is telling. I actually want someone to outright state she'd been on drugs or something to abandon and foresake the series.

True, some editors do still feature it, but it has mostly dwindled down to just a few who still do it, but fair point.