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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Jean being omega has nothing to do with the Phoenix force. There's no such thing as that. The Omega term is about the power level of someone's mutation and that only, the Phoenix is a separate cosmic entity that has nothing to do with that. It was because of Jean's powers that the Phoenix first got interested on her and then saved her when she called on the shuffle to beigin with.
    This is not true. At that time in canon, Jean and her children were destined to host the Phoenix Force like King Arthur was destined to wield Excalibur. Originally, the PF was something only Jean and her children could host until Excalibur expanded that number. Which was expanded even further during Morrison's run, and then AvX basically said, "You know what? Who cares? Anybody can host the PF," and Jean was the most suitable host for it. IIRC, the PF was interested in Jean because it found a kindred spirit in her. You will not find any canon out there post the retcon where Jean was established to be at the bottom of the bay while the PF, in the guise of Jean, "died" on the moon, where it states, "Jean Grey's full potential is equal to the power of the Phoenix Force even when she is not being possessed by it." If Jean had that kind of potential, why in the world would Mr. Sinister have been so obsessed with getting a child born of the union between Madelyne Pryor (and Jean clone) and Cyclops? He said their progeny would have ultimate power. If Jean had that on her own without the PF, he would have just stopped with the Jean clone.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Alright, i'll address the Elephant in the Room.

    Storm has been labeled I believe a few times to be confirmed an Omega Level mutant by writers, but Marvel says she is NOT Omega. Then we have see Psylocke, Emma, Rachel, Quintine Quire are labled as Omega Mutants as well.(So i've heard)

    Marvel has a definitive list of who is Omega and who is not, but some Marvel Writers have their own list on who they think ARE and who they believe flat out are not.

    So, clearly we see there is some form of contradiction or opinions in Marvel about what Mutants are Omega and who are not. That's why I say it really no longer matters if Marvel and it's writers can't agree with each other.

    (By that's just me or how I see it)
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  3. #63
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    The thing is, though, it doesn't say what Celestialbodies is saying. Also, during Morrison's run on New X-Men, it was clearly established that Jean Grey was possessed by the Phoenix Force. He even stated it in an interview.

    Many Jean fans keep trying to find a way around the retcon where the Phoenix Force was made into something separate from Jean where it cloned her body while leaving her at the bottom of a bay in a healing cocoon because they want to go with the original Jean is the Phoenix storyline. They are always trying to read things about Jean and the Phoenix with the intent of interpreting the stories in a way that says the Phoenix Force is not a being unique from, but is merely something she created with her mind, or other such theories. What they are trying to do simply doesn't work. Jean and the PF are clearly two separate beings and Jean's potential is to be able to merge with it as its most suitable host.
    Yea I was under the impression Jean and Phoenix were one but the point about her being in the bay while the real phoenix copied her doesn't make the case they were ever one.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Alright, i'll address the Elephant in the Room.

    Storm has been labeled I believe a few times to be confirmed an Omega Level mutant by writers, but Marvel says she is NOT Omega. Then we have see Psylocke, Emma, Rachel, Quintine Quire are labled as Omega Mutants as well.(So i've heard)

    Marvel has a definitive list of who is Omega and who is not, but some Marvel Writers have their own list on who they think ARE and who they believe flat out are not.

    So, clearly we see there is some form of contradiction or opinions in Marvel about what Mutants are Omega and who are not. That's why I say it really no longer matters if Marvel and it's writers can't agree with each other.
    Going by the original definition of the term "Omega", Storm was an omega mutant right out of the gate. You got writers who wanted to scale her back to prop up other characters, so they ignored parts of her canon to try and keep her out of that class, but the canon is still there. That said, being labelled an omega mutant was made obsolete from day 1 when Bobby was classified as such. It has become even more meaningless with all the other characters they have crammed into that powerclass over the years. Neither Emma, Psylocke, Quentin Quire, Rachel, etc would have the potential to rival or surpass the likes of Galactus at their full potential without some kind of Phoenix Force-possession boost or something else augmenting their powers to such a degree.

    For my part in this discussion, I am going by the definition of an omega mutant being a character who, at their fullest potential, can rival the power levels of characters like Galactus. Iceman is a joke compared to that and Jean can't do it unless she's hosting the PF. Storm is very easily in that power class as is Legion (he put an entire universe in a box, I believe), Franklin Richards, and I would argue Selene as well. Since anybody can now host the PF, I don't think Jean should be in this category anymore and simply making her the most perfect person suitable to being its host doesn't change that.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 11:59 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Yea I was under the impression Jean and Phoenix were one but the point about her being in the bay while the real phoenix copied her doesn't make the case they were ever one.
    Originally, there was no Phoenix Force and it was all Jean Grey and she just died on the moon. However, Marvel wanted to bring Jean back from the grave, so they came up with a retcon where the PF was created and made separate from Jean so that the real Jean could be established to be in the bay. Ever since then, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force have two separate things and many Jean fans don't like that. So, the original story is null and void as it was all this cosmic being (the PF) running around in the guise of Jean Grey. Everything post the retcon regarding Jean and Phoenix has to be read with this new (well, many decades old) understanding of them being two separate beings.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 12:00 PM.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Everything post the retcon regarding Jean and Phoenix has to be read with this new (well, many decades old) understanding of them being two separate beings.
    Exactly. That's why now Jean status as an omega mutant has nothing to do with the Phoenix.

  7. #67
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Originally, there was no Phoenix Force and it was all Jean Grey and she just died on the moon. However, Marvel wanted to bring Jean back from the grave, so they came up with a retcon where the PF was created and made separate from Jean so that the real Jean could be established to be in the bay. Ever since then, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force have two separate things and many Jean fans don't like that. So, the original story is null and void as it was all this cosmic being (the PF) running around in the guise of Jean Grey. Everything post the retcon regarding Jean and Phoenix has to be read with this new (well, many decades old) understanding of them being two separate beings.
    I'm confused again lol. Is Jean an omega without the Phoenix? I'm leaning Yes because the potential to house the Phoenix, not based upon any feats where she did not have any Phoenix powers.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Exactly. That's why now Jean status as an omega mutant has nothing to do with the Phoenix.
    On this, you are not correct. Her potential is still hinged on her being able to host the PF. Hence, Jeen was not yet developed enough in her potential to be able to safely host the PF without burning out while Adult Jean could safely host the PF. In the last issue of Phoenix Resurrection, the Phoenix Force was trying to tempt Jean with the power it offered. This is not power that Jean can wield on her own without it. It offered her the power to remake the world, to bring back her dead love ones, and to make herself and her love ones impervious to death. Jean rejected the power it offered. Jean didn't say, "I have all of that power on my own, I don't need you."

    Instead, Jean said this:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JYRF0KMh_t...600/RCO025.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyBeYc08AR...600/RCO026.jpg

    So, again, Jean's status of being an omega mutant was originally hinged on her being able to host the PF so that she could match the power of people like Galactus. However, nowadays, given the way the term omega has been watered down so that even somebody like Psylocke is an omega mutant, Jean would be one without the PF as it no longer refers to characters who potentially wield power to rival those of the cosmic abstract beings.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Going by the original definition of the term "Omega", Storm was an omega mutant right out of the gate. You got writers who wanted to scale her back to prop up other characters, so they ignored parts of her canon to try and keep her out of that class, but the canon is still there. That said, being labelled an omega mutant was made obsolete from day 1 when Bobby was classified as such. It has become even more meaningless with all the other characters they have crammed into that powerclass over the years. Neither Emma, Psylocke, Quentin Quire, Rachel, etc would have the potential to rival or surpass the likes of Galactus at their full potential without some kind of Phoenix Force-possession boost or something else augmenting their powers to such a degree.

    For my part in this discussion, I am going by the definition of an omega mutant being a character who, at their fullest potential, can rival the power levels of characters like Galactus. Iceman is a joke compared to that and Jean can't do it unless she's hosting the PF. Storm is very easily in that power class as is Legion (he put an entire universe in a box, I believe), Franklin Richards, and I would argue Selene as well. Since anybody can now host the PF, I don't think Jean should be in this category anymore and simply making her the most perfect person suitable to being its host doesn't change that.
    Back then Storm was not classified by MARVEL that she is an Omega, she was already OP. Iceman I guess makes sense I don't mind him being Omega, but truth be told he was a character that just shoots ice....kinda boring. Plust Storm could already do practically what he can do anyway. So they NEEDED something to make him interesting. And here we go Omega level it is.

    It's just not special. Storm really doesn't need to be Omega, but it would be nice to acknowledge she is, same with Magneto and Magik etc. This Omega lvl seems to be slapped onto ANYONE that Marvel felt like giving it too. When I first heard about it the Term was awesome now? Not so much.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I'm confused again lol. Is Jean an omega without the Phoenix? I'm leaning Yes because the potential to house the Phoenix, not based upon any feats where she did not have any Phoenix powers.
    Going by the original definition of an omega mutant, Jean would NOT be an omega without the PF. The original definition of an omega mutant was a character who had the power to rival beings like Galactus at their max potential. Jean only has that when she plays host to the PF. At that time, she was one of the few beings around who could host it.

    Nowadays, the term has been watered down so much that people like Psylocke and Elixer are considered omegas. It no longer means a person has to be abstract-level at their full potential. Going by this new realization of the power class, Jean would qualify as an omega mutant even without the PF.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 12:20 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Back then Storm was not classified by MARVEL that she is an Omega, she was already OP. Iceman I guess makes sense I don't mind him being Omega, but truth be told he was a character that just shoots ice....kinda boring. Plust Storm could already do practically what he can do anyway. So they NEEDED something to make him interesting. And here we go Omega level it is.

    It's just not special. Storm really doesn't need to be Omega, but it would be nice to acknowledge she is, same with Magneto and Magik etc. This Omega lvl seems to be slapped onto ANYONE that Marvel felt like giving it too. When I first heard about it the Term was awesome now? Not so much.
    I agree with you on the reasoning why they made Iceman an omega (to give him something special to try and make his less redundant with Ororo on the team with him given her powerset overlaps his big time plus gives her a TON of other things he can't do), but it was still silly to make him one. No matter how powerful you make him, with his powerset to turn into ice, move moisture, and extract heat from his target space (he likely shunts it off to another dimension), its silly to think such powers at any level can be compared with the likes of Galactus.

    Also, the writer went out of his way to try and weaken Storm in some regards to try and make Iceman less redundant on the team. Its one reason till this day I hate the idea of Storm and Bobby being on the same roster and it makes me feel less than favorable towards his character.

    Finally, Storm fit the original defintion of an omega mutant (a mutant who wields power rivalling cosmic abstract entities) better than either Jean (who requires the possession of an external being) or Bobby (who simply doesn't have the powerset to make the cut no matter what Marvel says. They might as well have Wolverine beat Galactus in a fight. I won't accept it as anything credible.) because she had that kind of power within her naturally without anything boosting her and her powerset easily competes with the abstracts.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 12:25 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I'm confused again lol. Is Jean an omega without the Phoenix? I'm leaning Yes because the potential to house the Phoenix, not based upon any feats where she did not have any Phoenix powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Going by the original definition of an omega mutant, Jean would NOT be an omega without the PF. The original definition of an omega mutant was a character who had the power to rival beings like Galactus at their max potential. Jean only has that when she plays host to the PF. At that time, she was one of the few beings around who could host it.

    Nowadays, the term has been watered down so much that people like Psylocke and Elixer are considered omegas. It no longer means a person has to be abstract-level at their full potential. Going by this new realization of the power class, Jean would qualify as an omega mutant even without the PF.
    Let me try and explain it this way:

    Originally, when the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga was all Jean and there was no PF (so, pre-retcon of the real Jean being at the bottom of the bay), the powers diplayed was the expression of Jean's full potential. However, once the retcon was made to bring Jean back and the Phoenix Force was made into a separate being from Jean, the Phoenix was still her full potential, but it existed as something external from her, a cosmic entity that she and her children could host. So, thus, her full potential was to play host to a cosmic being, something hardly anybody else could do at that time.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 12:32 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Alright, i'll address the Elephant in the Room.

    Storm has been labeled I believe a few times to be confirmed an Omega Level mutant by writers, but Marvel says she is NOT Omega. Then we have see Psylocke, Emma, Rachel, Quintine Quire are labled as Omega Mutants as well.(So i've heard)

    Marvel has a definitive list of who is Omega and who is not, but some Marvel Writers have their own list on who they think ARE and who they believe flat out are not.

    So, clearly we see there is some form of contradiction or opinions in Marvel about what Mutants are Omega and who are not. That's why I say it really no longer matters if Marvel and it's writers can't agree with each other.

    (By that's just me or how I see it)
    Omega telepath isn't the same as Omega mutant.

  14. #74
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    I just wanted to say that the Phoenix being a separate being from Jean retcon was a good thing as there was some things that Phoenix Force Jean Grey did that didn't make sense with her powerset set. The most blatent thing was her eating a star. What in the world does reading other people's thoughts and moving objects around with your head have to do with eating a star? It makes much more sense if its a cosmic entity that really ate that star in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    I agree with you on the reasoning why they made Iceman an omega (to give him something special to try and make his less redundant with Ororo on the team with him given her powerset overlaps his big time plus gives her a TON of other things he can't do), but it was still silly to make him one. No matter how powerful you make him, with his powerset to turn into ice, move moisture, and extract heat from his target space (he likely shunts it off to another dimension), its silly to think such powers at any level can be compared with the likes of Galactus.

    Also, the writer went out of his way to try and weaken Storm in some regards to try and make Iceman less redundant on the team. Its one reason till this day I hate the idea of Storm and Bobby being on the same roster and it makes me feel less than favorable towards his character.
    Storm and Iceman CAN be on the same team you just have to find the right Balance to it. Sure, it would be very redundant, but I also see interesting ways to make it work.

    I'm not sure Omega level means to be on par with Galactus. I guess it depends on your mutation I don't know. I don't know any mutants that are Omega lvl can even beat or be a contender against Galactus other than Franklin Richards.

    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    Omega telepath isn't the same as Omega mutant.
    And your right. No it's not, but there classified as Omega nonetheless
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