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  1. #76
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Let me try and explain it this way:

    Originally, when the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga was all Jean and there was no PF (so, pre-retcon of the real Jean being at the bottom of the bay), the Phoenix was the expression of Jean's full potential. However, once the retcon was made to bring Jean back, the Phoenix was still her full potential, but it existed as something external from her, a cosmic entity that she and her children could host. So, thus, her full potential was to play host to a cosmic being, something hardly anybody else could do at that time.
    But your explanation has never been specified in the comics. In the comics it just says that she is an Omega mutant with unlimited potential. It doesn’t say that hosting the Phoenix force is what gives her unlimited potential. Xavier labeled her Omega way before she became Phoenix. I think that making Jean Omega is the whole have the cake and still eat it that Marvel tries now and again when it comes to Jean. It is them saying: ”Sure, according to the retcon, which we created just so we could get Jean back and not have her being a mass murderer, she was never the Phoenix, but since she is an Omega it means that she has unlimited potential, so she could potentially reach those power levels one day on her own, sort of. So the original Phoenix saga could have been Jean, even though it wasn’t. So she has the potential, even though we will never explore that potential since it means that she will be too much like the Phoenix and we will have to kill her again. But she still has the potential. Sort of.” :-)

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Storm and Iceman CAN be on the same team you just have to find the right Balance to it. Sure, it would be very redundant, but I also see interesting ways to make it work.

    I'm not sure Omega level means to be on par with Galactus. I guess it depends on your mutation I don't know. I don't know any mutants that are Omega lvl can even beat or be a contender against Galactus other than Franklin Richards.
    We are talking about mutants at the full range of their mutation being able to contend with the likes of Galactus. Storm and Davil Haller easily fit this category. Storm's powerset is to perceive the universe around her as patterns of energy she can bend to her will. She can observe how the universal forces around her work and replicate what she sees. Furthermore, she can feed on the life force of heavenly bodies and gain spiritual and material sustenance from them. This power, in turn, is limited only to by the strength of her will and body. She once displayed the strength of will to host Eternity, the embodiment of all matter and energy in the omniverse. There is no upper-limit to her willpower. So, the only thing limiting her power is her human body, which plenty of canon out there has clearly established is temporary if she chooses to work towards her full potential as she has the potential so transcend her humanity. We see this touched upon in the Roguestorm story arc, in the 12 story arc, and an earlier issue of X-Treme X-Men. So, given that she was able to host Eternity and can transcend her humanity, an argument can be made that Storm could actually dwarf Galactus and become an omniversal power.

    Even at her current stage or evolution, we have seen Storm wield the full power of a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space), she was able to defeat the Trion who were the sum of all matter, life, and energy for an entire reality's past, present, and future in combat as well as sew that reality back together again when it was unravelling at its seams. She's thrown attacks backed by the full power of stars, and more. These feats right here actually would justify her fighting a Galactus-level antagonist right now and winning...and it would not be PIS...and she is nowhere near her full potential either.

    Legion was able to put an entire universe in a box. "Nuff said.

    Regarding Selene, there is no upper limit to the amount of life force she can absorb from people. She demonstrated the ability to transcend her flesh and blood form and was able to start devouring the spirit realm (which is probably the Astral Plane). Given that her powerset includes magic, I believe she has the powerset to be able to take on somebody like Galactus if she devoured enough life force prior to the fight.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    But your explanation has never been specified in the comics. In the comics it just says that she is an Omega mutant with unlimited potential. It doesn’t say that hosting the Phoenix force is what gives her unlimited potential. Xavier labeled her Omega way before she became Phoenix. I think that making Jean Omega is the whole have the cake and still eat it that Marvel tries now and again when it comes to Jean. It is them saying: ”Sure, according to the retcon, which we created just so we could get Jean back and not have her being a mass murderer, she was never the Phoenix, but since she is an Omega it means that she has unlimited potential, so she could potentially reach those power levels one day on her own, sort of. So the original Phoenix saga could have been Jean, even though it wasn’t. So she has the potential, even though we will never explore that potential since it means that she will be too much like the Phoenix and we will have to kill her again. But she still has the potential. Sort of.” :-)
    The omega mutant classification didn't come up till about 20 years AFTER the Dark Phoenix Saga. The Phoenix Force was always established to be Jean's potential to host. It was stated she and her children were intended to wield it as King Arthur was destinted to take hold of Excalibur. The original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga had to do with Jean's full potential, except it was just retconned to being a cosmic being that she can host rather than it all being just her. This is why the Phoenix Force made its pleas to Jean in the final issue of Phoenix Ressurection as it did. It offered her all of that power that she could not wield on her own without it.

    Did that quote come from an interview? If so, it is not substantuated by canon. Canon clearly contradicts it as we saw in the conversation between Jean and the Phoenix in the final issue of Phoenix Resurrection (not to mention the interview keeps saying "stor of"):
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDz88yMgHX...600/RCO027.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VK1Crs15Kj...600/RCO028.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TZf4MmpwN_...600/RCO029.jpg
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 12:55 PM.

  4. #79
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    The omega mutant classification didn't come up till about 20 years AFTER the Dark Phoenix Saga. The Phoenix Force was always established to be Jean's potential to host. It was stated she and her children were intended to wield it as King Arthur was destinted to take hold of Excalibur. The original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga had to do with Jean's full potential, except it was just retconned to being a cosmic being that she can host rather than it all being just her. This is why the Phoenix Force made its pleas to Jean in the final issue of Phoenix Ressurection as it did. It offered her all of that power that she could not wield on her own without it.

    Did that quote come from an interview? If so, it is not substantuated by canon. Canon clearly contradicts it as we saw in the conversation between Jean and the Phoenix in the final issue of Phoenix Resurrection.
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDz88yMgHX...600/RCO027.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VK1Crs15Kj...600/RCO028.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TZf4MmpwN_...600/RCO029.jpg
    Jean was first called an Omega in X-Men Forever, by Xavier himself. The story took place before the Phoenix saga. He looked at her powers and said that she had unlimited potential. Not because she could host a cosmic entity, but because her power level in herself is unlimited. You don’t want her to be that since you don’t think a telepath/telekinetic can ”eat a star”. But an Omega was never about that. It was about having unlimited potential in the use of your powers. We don’t know what Jean can do with this unlimited potential since we haven’t seen her truly be pushed.

    Anyway: Your version of her Omega potential can’t be used since nowadays everyone can host the Phoenix, so her unlimited potential has to be about something else.

    The ”quote” was just me trying to joke about Marvel’s contradictory way of writing Jean and the Phoenix throughout the years. It was obviously a very bad joke. :-)

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    We are talking about mutants at the full range of their mutation being able to contend with the likes of Galactus. Storm and Davil Haller easily fit this category. Storm's powerset is to perceive the universe around her as patterns of energy she can bend to her will. She can observe how the universal forces around her work and replicate what she sees. Furthermore, she can feed on the life force of heavenly bodies and gain spiritual and material sustenance from them. This power, in turn, is limited only to by the strength of her will and body. She once displayed the strength of will to host Eternity, the embodiment of all matter and energy in the omniverse. There is no upper-limit to her willpower. So, the only thing limiting her power is her human body, which plenty of canon out there has clearly established is temporary if she chooses to work towards her full potential as she has the potential so transcend her humanity. We see this touched upon in the Roguestorm story arc, in the 12 story arc, and an earlier issue of X-Treme X-Men. So, given that she was able to host Eternity and can transcend her humanity, an argument can be made that Storm could actually dwarf Galactus and become an omniversal power.

    Even at her current stage or evolution, we have seen Storm wield the full power of a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space), she was able to defeat the Trion who were the sum of all matter, life, and energy for an entire reality's past, present, and future in combat as well as sew that reality back together again when it was unravelling at its seams. She's thrown attacks backed by the full power of stars, and more. These feats right here actually would justify her fighting a Galactus-level antagonist right now and winning...and it would not be PIS...and she is nowhere near her full potential either.

    Legion was able to put an entire universe in a box. "Nuff said.

    Regarding Selene, there is no upper limit to the amount of life force she can absorb from people. She demonstrated the ability to transcend her flesh and blood form and was able to start devouring the spirit realm (which is probably the Astral Plane). Given that her powerset includes magic, I believe she has the powerset to be able to take on somebody like Galactus if she devoured enough life force prior to the fight.
    I'm going to stop you right there. Please here me when I say this. As a HUGE Storm Fan myself.

    STORM is by any means NOT contender against Galactus.

    There is no attack she can do that would do any form of Harm to Galactus. No other Omega level mutant other than Franklin can be a contender against Galactus. Where talking about an Entity that playfully destroy Solar Systems Just because he can. No matter Storm mutation she is NOT on his level and never will be.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    Jean was first called an Omega in X-Men Forever, by Xavier himself. The story took place before the Phoenix saga. He looked at her powers and said that she had unlimited potential. Not because she could host a cosmic entity, but because her power level in herself is unlimited. You donít want her to be that since you donít think a telepath/telekinetic can Ēeat a starĒ. But an Omega was never about that. It was about having unlimited potential in the use of your powers. We donít know what Jean can do with this unlimited potential since we havenít seen her truly be pushed.

    Anyway: Your version of her Omega potential canít be used since nowadays everyone can host the Phoenix, so her unlimited potential has to be about something else.

    The ĒquoteĒ was just me trying to joke about Marvelís contradictory way of writing Jean and the Phoenix throughout the years. It was obviously a very bad joke. :-)
    1) X-Men Forever was written after the Dark Phoenix Saga. So, even if it was a flashback panel...get my drift?

    2) Part of her ability is to serve as host to that cosmic entity. At that time, hardly anybody could do it. Even still, till this day, she is the most suitable host to it, so in that regard, she would still outpower most other mutants potentially. I was just saying, though, that anybody who hosts the PF would become cosmically powerful as a result.

    3) Her unlimited potential is when she is playing host to the PF. We saw what she can do as the ultimate Phoenix Force host when she edited the timeline for an entire reality as the White Phoenix of the Crown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    I'm going to stop you right there. Please here me when I say this. As a HUGE Storm Fan myself.

    STORM is by any means NOT contender against Galactus.

    There is no attack she can do that would do any form of Harm to Galactus. No other Omega level mutant other than Franklin can be a contender against Galactus. Where talking about an Entity that playfully destroy Solar Systems Just because he can. No matter Storm mutation she is NOT on his level and never will be.
    What I am saying is a writer CAN HAVE Storm fight Galactus and win. If they were to fight right now on the boards, I would not argue for Storm, but just saying that the seeds have been planted to have Storm win such a contest.

    Storm was able to best the Trion, the sum of an entire reality's past, present, and future. Galactus does not represent that for an entire reality. Also, Storm's ability to become one with the universe around her, perceive it as patterns of energy and forces she can bend to her will, see it how those forces behave and interact with each other and replicate what she sees, if such a powerset is taken to a high enough extreme, it can most certainly beat out Galactus. Her powerset easily competes with his. Its just a question of can she wield it at a high enough level to beat him. At full potential, she should easily be able to do so as it is probable she could wield her powerset on an omniversal scale. Right now at her current stage in her evolution? I would argue that it is a strong possibility.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 01:29 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    I'm going to stop you right there. Please here me when I say this. As a HUGE Storm Fan myself.

    STORM is by any means NOT contender against Galactus.

    There is no attack she can do that would do any form of Harm to Galactus. No other Omega level mutant other than Franklin can be a contender against Galactus. Where talking about an Entity that playfully destroy Solar Systems Just because he can. No matter Storm mutation she is NOT on his level and never will be.
    I forgot to answer this part of your post. This is not true. Galactus sustains his own being by feeding off the life force of planets. Storm, in turn, also feeds off the life force of not only planets, but stars as well. Who is to say that Storm can't drain Galactus of the energies he's consumed? I am not saying that Storm can or cannot pull this feat on Galactus, but it is something a writer could use to have her beat him in a fight to render him inert or in a state of suspended animation or something. So, yes, there are ways she can hurt him with her powerset if she is written strong enough to wield them at such a level in the story. Also, underneath his armor, he is an energy being (I think something akin to a living star, but obviously much more powerful than any regular star). We know that Storm can disrupt the energy matrix of energy beings. We saw her blow up a Herald of Galactus who was made up of energy. Storm could pull something similar on Galactus IF she is written powerfully enough with her powerset in that fight. Again, the foundation has already been established in canon to write Storm powerful enough to pull this on Galactus if a writer wanted her to do it.

    Once more, Storm has the powerset to contend with Galactus, so the only question is if the two fought, would the writer make Storm powerful enough to wield her powers to overcome him. This isn't like Iceman vs. Galactus where Bobby would have no chance at hurting the world devourer no matter how powerful Iceman were written with his powerset. Bobby's abilities would be completely useless against Galactus.
    Last edited by rutog98; 02-27-2018 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #84
    Incredible Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Omega is actually a label for underachievers. It means they have a lot of potential, but since none of them ever live up to it, every Omega is basically a failure as a mutant.

    Guggs should make Kitty Omega level by having her phase the entire Earth the next time there's an alien invasion.

  10. #85
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raidensix View Post
    Omega-level only works if the writers/editors actually cooperated on the term but as each writer kept pushing for their pet characters, every Tom, Dick and Harry became an Omega.
    Exactly. And, as has already been pointed out, fandom being what it is, there is no shortage of boring folk pushing their glasses up their noses and earnestly repeating that their favourite character is Omega.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Omega should be an extremely rare term. I really disliked when everybody became omega something or potentially omega. Not to mention they get defeated so easily, it makes everything a joke.

    They should be very few and with really godlike power. If it were for me the only omegas would be Legion, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, Proteus and Cable (but he should never have his powers)
    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerforyears View Post
    the way I see it Omega Mutants are those who can destroy Earth or life on earth, by themselves, without the help of any other person or any technology.
    It means highest threat level possible

    It includes most mutants who can alter reality, but also people like Iceman who can cause an Ice Age, Xorn who can destroy the planet (and the solar system) with his black hole, Elixir if he goes evil with his resurrection and killing powers etc
    These posts seem by far the most sensible approach to me. I wouldn't include Elixer though - his powers seem too local. Iceman actually seems more appropriate than Storm to me, given that (post Emma Frost possession) he can change himself, and presumably other stuff, into ice.... but on the other hand he'd be next to useless in Space, for example.

    To me I'd actually take it a step further than "threat to Earth" and say that Omega would be almost on a cosmic threat level - therefore mainly characters with matter or reality warping powers. e.g. Legion, Proteus and Franklin Richards would be up there. Jean Grey (without Phoenix) and Cable would be bubbling under, purely because we've again only ever seen them do stuff on a fairly "local" level. If I had to choose others that I thought were probably Omega or thereabouts it would be Mikhail Rasputin, Jamie Braddock, Mad Jim Jaspers, Clyde Wyncham, Mister M..... Basically the reality warpers.
    You could probably chuck Hyperstorm in there too, but that character never really went anywhere.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_munroex View Post
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  12. #87
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    What I am saying is a writer CAN HAVE Storm fight Galactus and win. If they were to fight right now on the boards, I would not argue for Storm, but just saying that the seeds have been planted to have Storm win such a contest.

    Storm was able to best the Trion, the sum of an entire reality's past, present, and future. Galactus does not represent that for an entire reality. Also, Storm's ability to become one with the universe around her, perceive it as patterns of energy and forces she can bend to her will, see it how those forces behave and interact with each other and replicate what she sees, if such a powerset is taken to a high enough extreme, it can most certainly beat out Galactus. Her powerset easily competes with his. Its just a question of can she wield it at a high enough level to beat him. At full potential, she should easily be able to do so as it is probable she could wield her powerset on an omniversal scale. Right now at her current stage in her evolution? I would argue that it is a strong possibility.
    This may seem a harsh suggestion, but all of the above I pretty much put in the category of "a writer's pet character" as described earlier. I love Storm, but none of that really suits her, and I think there's a good reason most other writers haven't tried to push that angle.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    I forgot to answer this part of your post. This is not true. Galactus sustains his own being by feeding off the life force of planets. Storm, in turn, also feeds off the life force of not only planets, but stars as well. Who is to say that Storm can't drain Galactus of the energies he's consumed? I am not saying that Storm can or cannot pull this feat on Galactus, but it is something a writer could use to have her beat him in a fight to render him inert or in a state of suspended animation or something. So, yes, there are ways she can hurt him with her powerset if she is written strong enough to wield them at such a level in the story. Also, underneath his armor, he is an energy being (I think something akin to a living star, but obviously much more powerful than any regular star). We know that Storm can disrupt the energy matrix of energy beings. We saw her blow up a Herald of Galactus who was made up of energy. Storm could pull something similar on Galactus IF she is written powerfully enough with her powerset in that fight. Again, the foundation has already been established in canon to write Storm powerful enough to pull this on Galactus if a writer wanted her to do it.

    Once more, Storm has the powerset to contend with Galactus, so the only question is if the two fought, would the writer make Storm powerful enough to wield her powers to overcome him. This isn't like Iceman vs. Galactus where Bobby would have no chance at hurting the world devourer no matter how powerful Iceman were written with his powerset. Bobby's abilities would be completely useless against Galactus.
    No that is incorrect. Galactus will Turn Storm into Dust, just by looking at her. Storm doesn't have any defenses to protect herself. Again, NOTHING Storm can do will harm Galactus and that's a fact. You think absorbing the Energy of Stars and using it as an attack is going to give Galactus Pause??? NO, he will eat it or shoot it right back at Storm and she will obliterate and die. Storm is NOT on his level. The ONLY person that has a chance IS Richard. What your stating is shoulda coulda woulda's and that's not even going to work let alone be enough. Unless Storm becomes a being beyond Glactus or a God then we have an argument, but right now she can't.

    There is no argument you can make, no scans you post that proves Storm can beat or be on par with Galactus. Storm stands no change against a Being who can change Storm's molecule make up at will.
    Last edited by stormphoenix; 02-27-2018 at 02:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    This may seem a harsh suggestion, but all of the above I pretty much put in the category of "a writer's pet character" as described earlier. I love Storm, but none of that really suits her, and I think there's a good reason most other writers haven't tried to push that angle.

    Here is the thing about it, though: Storm was created to be the most powerful and most beautiful female character in all of Comics. Her creator said as much and further stated that he believed in succeeded in both endeavors. Furthermore, she and Phoenix Force Jean Grey were established to be equal in power from the start. For instance, when Phoenix Force JG (PFJG) fought Firelord, she defeated him with a blast backed by the power of a star. A few issues earlier, Storm threw an attack backed by the full power of a star. Dark Phoenix ate a single star. Storm devoured a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space). Dark Phoenix had evolved beyond comprehension. In the Roguestorm story arc, Storm evolved beyond all comprehension, and, like Dark Phoenix, wielded near-infinite power.

    Every now and then, we get glimpses of this from various writers. Alan Davis had Storm defeat the Trion, the sum of all matter, life and energy for an entire reality's past, present and future...and Storm sewed the reality back together when it was unravelling at its seams after she beat them. McDuffie then had Storm blow up a Stardust, a Herald of Galactus (neither Human Torch, who wielded the power of the Silver Surfer alongside his own abilities was able to match the damage Storm did to Stardust in the same issue nor was Beta Ray Bill, whose powers are identical to Thor's able to match the power output to blow up Stardust with an attack which Storm accomplished). Not only that, but McDuffie also established that Storm's strength of will was strong enough to hold the essence of Eternity, the sum of all matter and energy in the omniverse. This was a feat that was stated in that same issue that would kill Silver Surfer had he attempted it. Storm didn't struggle at all with this either. This is important given that Ororo's power levels are limited by the strength of her will and body.

    So, every now and then, we see tidbits of what Storm can do...and this is at her current stage or mutation. She's nowhere near her full potential.

    As far as most writers not pushing the angle, I think it has to do with them wanting to emphasize Jean and the Phoenix Force stuff more or simply writing Storm at those levels consistently would make her too unmanageable for an X-Men team book. That said, I don't want her written with these feats all the time, but they should be making a HUGE deal about her potential, at least in reference to it. Every now and then, we can get a huge feat from her and I'd be glad. However, I want to see such feats more frequently than once every blue moon.

  15. #90
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    1) X-Men Forever was written after the Dark Phoenix Saga. So, even if it was a flashback panel...get my drift?
    But there is no mention of that. Xavier talks about her unlimited potential as a telepath/telekinetic, he does not say that her unlimited potential will come from her being a host to a cosmic force. Her being the perfect host for the Phoenix is just a bonus. She is an Omega mutant with unlimited telepathic and telekinetic powers, and thanks to her being so powerful that makes her the perfect host.

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