Instances of good/bad female showings

[Warund]

Hey, X-Folks!

I've got an upcoming project in college and I'm going to talk about female representation in different media. I chose comics, as it has become one of my favorite hobbies in recent years. I chose especificially to talk about the X-Women, which are the most fleshed out female characters in comics, IMO. That's where I need you guys to help me xD.

Basically, what I'm looking for are moments where female characters are depicted as capable, and have their personality shine in unique ways. I'm not necessarily looking for feats and power showings, but rather moments and conversations that make that character who they really are. I'm thinking right now of that UXM issue( which I forgot the number '-') where Storm is trying some outfits on and Wolvie questions her if she doesn't care what other people will think, and Storm says something along the lines of not hiding who she is to make others feel comfortable. That was a glorious showing to me. Jean being a spokeswoman for the X-men, both in NXM and the recent Red issue would also count as a good female showing.

I'm also looking for the opposite, though: moments where X-Women have their agency removed from them, and are either hypersexualized(like Psylocke) or merely there to progress a man's story( hello Fraction Emma). Instances where female characters are also considered incapable and weak when they really shouldn't be also count( looking at 60's Jean, who was considered the weakest member of the team when Warren, who could only FREAKING FLY, was considered stronger than her). Any other sexist depictions are also valid here( right now, thinking of that conversation between Stacy-X and Wolvie. Kinda creeps me out)

I intend to show both old(which I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about as you guys are) and modern comics' perspective on that matter, so I'd really appreciate it if you guys could bring panels of different X-Runs.

[Ricochet Rita]

Your project is very interesting, and I would like to help.

As for positive moments, for me is kind of 'all of them', so I can't choose one right now, but I'll keep on thinking.

As for negative moments, the one which always comes to my mind is this:



The sight of Rogue (my crazy, rude, great Rogue!) posing as a pin-up, showing butt and fondling Magnus' chest while he holds her as if she were his doll, made me puke up. For me, this was the beginning of the end of my personal X-Men :'(

(I know it was the beginning of the start for many other people but...what can I say...people are strange).

[Wiccan]

If Animations count: Literally everything with Jean on the '90s cartoon. '60s Jean was a beast compared to that.

[244]

“Magik: Storm and Illyana” as a positive.

[Silver Fang]

From what I hear, the Storm progression went down later. I think it was mentioned Storm was a nudist, and free with her body & Jean shamed her into covering herself up more. If that's the case, I suppose that can be listed as a bad one.

A negative with Jean. Scott was having psychic mental affairs with Emma while married to Jean. He entered a relationship with her after Jean's death. Now that Jean is back, one writer said she should only be with Scott. I see that as a negative. If Scott can cheat (up for debate) on Jean, and gets to enter an official relationship with his mistress, then I don't see why Jean has to be stuck to him.

Mystique - Negative
I am not a fan of her. But the negative is very much there. If I got anything off, feel free to correct me anyone. But the way I understand. In the 80's, Mystique was in a relationship with Destiny, her greatest love. She was more an anti-villain who had admirable goals, but harsh means and worked toward said goals for mutant rights & freedom. She was logical & capable of being objective. And I think she was depicted as more straight-laced & serious. I think Destiny even mentioned it being her mission to make Mystique laugh, if it's the last thing she did. That is respectable. Then she turned into a sexed-up psycho who was willing to kill one son to save herself, and outright assassinated another son, whom she abandoned for not being a mutant. The son was Graydon, whom she had with Sabretooth & he was the better parent. lol

Then she was further ruined when she was hooked up with Sabretooth in 2010. This disservices BOTH. But staying on Mystique, Creed has tried to kill her, almost succeeding at one point. He went after Destiny's family just to spite her,. He killed Destiny's son or daughter, and was responsible for the kidnapping of her grandson, Chase. He has done evil things to her, and openly scoffs at what she used to stand for. Mystique cared about mutant rights & freedom. Sabretooth did not, has murdered numerous mutants, and sold out numerous others by selling their file info to the highest bidder for experiments. Why is she depicted as being in love with this man again? I hear her descent started in the 90's, but even then she was disgusted by Creed.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Hey, X-Folks!

I've got an upcoming project in college and I'm going to talk about female representation in different media. I chose comics, as it has become one of my favorite hobbies in recent years. I chose especificially to talk about the X-Women, which are the most fleshed out female characters in comics, IMO. That's where I need you guys to help me xD.

Basically, what I'm looking for are moments where female characters are depicted as capable, and have their personality shine in unique ways. I'm not necessarily looking for feats and power showings, but rather moments and conversations that make that character who they really are. I'm thinking right now of that UXM issue( which I forgot the number '-') where Storm is trying some outfits on and Wolvie questions her if she doesn't care what other people will think, and Storm says something along the lines of not hiding who she is to make others feel comfortable. That was a glorious showing to me. Jean being a spokeswoman for the X-men, both in NXM and the recent Red issue would also count as a good female showing.

I'm also looking for the opposite, though: moments where X-Women have their agency removed from them, and are either hypersexualized(like Psylocke) or merely there to progress a man's story( hello Fraction Emma). Instances where female characters are also considered incapable and weak when they really shouldn't be also count( looking at 60's Jean, who was considered the weakest member of the team when Warren, who could only FREAKING FLY, was considered stronger than her). Any other sexist depictions are also valid here( right now, thinking of that conversation between Stacy-X and Wolvie. Kinda creeps me out)

I intend to show both old(which I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about as you guys are) and modern comics' perspective on that matter, so I'd really appreciate it if you guys could bring panels of different X-Runs.

I would warn you to consider your audience. If the evidence you present requires a HUGE amount of backstory to support it's not going to work. Take the approach of being able to see the forest for the trees. If your audience has never read a comic book take a step back and look at it from a superficial perspective that's easy to access. Maybe choose examples from the run of the Xmen where the entire team was women led by Storm and even had a female villain. Because pretty much superficially everything else is scantily clad women in skin tight clothes regardless of what they're saying. If you're doing it from a comics perspective expand your scope outside of the Xmen and even outside of Marvel. Aspen comics is very good when it comes to women characters NOT needing a man to accomplish something and DC is doing well with Mera developing beyond Aquaman. The Avengers are also pretty balanced in terms of story and costumes.

[donpricetag]

Love of the fact that Rogue has been developed into a competent leader over the years. She didn't come in with a leveled head like Cyclops, Storm or Havok. She was impulsive and emotionally fragile for years, prone to lashing out. Slowly, though we've seen be built into a leader and strategist.

However, I hate that the last few creators that have gotten their hands on her embrace this, yet at every turn she's nonsensically paired with said creator's favorite character. She's used as a trophy in this way, a tool to raise another character's profile. #@#@$ (we don't say it) was a pointless retcon, Carey with Magneto (admittedly his favorite character), though that at least had the slightest bit of backstory, creepy, but it's there at least. Havok ultimately got hooked up with Wasp, but got married to Rogue during Age of Ultron (for like two pages). She had some sort of fling with Human Torch off-panel, and then got attached to Deadpool (they could have been good friends, but instead "make-out party"). Now we've seen her being nudged back to Human Torch, developing something that was never developed, all the while sharing a book with Gambit. I don't see why she needs to be in any relationship, muchless why its a new one in every volume of UA. It's like since she's left the X-Men full-time the writers are like "my turn!", fulfilling some sort of childhood fantasy of smashing their action figures together... The 90s had the best action figures, no? Sorry about that last part, but dang they were good.

[Mike]

Marvel Girl in X-Men #63
UX063-3.jpg

[Sutekh]

Jean dying on the moon to save everyone from her out of control Phoenix aspect could be a great showing, if it hadn't been undercut by the retcon of it not having been Jean...

Carol Danvers magical pregnancy with her future boyfriend would probably count as the worst, ever. Any story about a female character that revolves around her uterus (and was written by a man) is probably going to rank pretty high on the suck-meter.

The Scarlet Witch has become the poster child for storylines involving women not being able to handle power without going crazy and needing to be killed / depowered 'for their own good.'

She-Hulk, on the other hand, has spent years being *more* in control of her 'Hulk' than her cousin Bruce, and, until recently, turned that whole 'women can't handle power' trope on its head. I was impressed how Jennifer managed to dodge storylines like 'gets pregnant' or 'loses control and needs to be put in her place' for so many years.

[Sundowhn]

Speaking in general terms here, but one of the issues I take with the depiction of women in comics, even the X-Men, is that it goes to one extreme or the other so very often. You either have a depiction where she is the be-all, end-all, doesn't-need-anyone and has few human failings, or you have the example (like Emma and Jean in the past) of a female character being used to tell a male character's story. One thing writers tend to miss is realism. A real woman isn't something suitable for a pedestal, above reproach and mistakes, nor is she an accessory for a man.

Granted, I really don't think comics are written with a female readership in mind, so they probably don't care that the female characters are difficult to relate to, but I thought it was worth bringing up.

It use to be that Kitty was one that stood out as very human, in her dealings and appearance (thus the appeal of the character, I'd guess) but that's no longer the case, and no other character has come forward to take her place.

In other words, as a woman who has read comics for a long time, it has been historically difficult for me to feel any kinship with female characters, as they're written as more fantasy material, rather than with realism. It's been far easier to identify with the struggles of male characters, because they are more likely to actually have human struggles and flaws.

I have no idea if that's anything useful for your research, but I thought I'd mention it.

[Tmacaoni]

Positive......Negative....I see both.

[Ambaryerno]

X-23 can hit both sides.

Her story is about empowerment, and struggling to find her own voice after a childhood spent being held down by others. She's a victim, but she triumphed OVER that.

NYX in of itself is an interesting case; it's certainly pretty shameless fanservice (and given her age at the time make it rather exploitative). On the other hand, I think it's created some interesting development in shaping who she is as a character.

And then you have Hopeless, who made her cast all that aside because she thought it would make her boyfriend like her better. :-P

[The Dying Detective]

Speaking in general terms here, but one of the issues I take with the depiction of women in comics, even the X-Men, is that it goes to one extreme or the other so very often. You either have a depiction where she is the be-all, end-all, doesn't-need-anyone and has few human failings, or you have the example (like Emma and Jean in the past) of a female character being used to tell a male character's story. One thing writers tend to miss is realism. A real woman isn't something suitable for a pedestal, above reproach and mistakes, nor is she an accessory for a man.

Granted, I really don't think comics are written with a female readership in mind, so they probably don't care that the female characters are difficult to relate to, but I thought it was worth bringing up.

It use to be that Kitty was one that stood out as very human, in her dealings and appearance (thus the appeal of the character, I'd guess) but that's no longer the case, and no other character has come forward to take her place.

In other words, as a woman who has read comics for a long time, it has been historically difficult for me to feel any kinship with female characters, as they're written as more fantasy material, rather than with realism. It's been far easier to identify with the struggles of male characters, because they are more likely to actually have human struggles and flaws.

I have no idea if that's anything useful for your research, but I thought I'd mention it.

Well if more suitable female characters are what you want I suggest you watch Studio Ghibli films he writes good female characters.

[donpricetag]

X-23 can hit both sides.

Her story is about empowerment, and struggling to find her own voice after a childhood spent being held down by others. She's a victim, but she triumphed OVER that.

NYX in of itself is an interesting case; it's certainly pretty shameless fanservice (and given her age at the time make it rather exploitative). On the other hand, I think it's created some interesting development in shaping who she is as a character.

And then you have Hopeless, who made her cast all that aside because she thought it would make her boyfriend like her better. :-P

The NYX stuff wasn't pretty... But things like this do happen. Basically what you're saying is "it's exploitive because it was talked about". I mean what else do you think would happen to a young attractive girl in a city like that with no skills (to make money)? It's possible that a good intentioned police officer, social worker or citizen finds her and get/gives her the help she needs. But it's also possible that a scum bag, pimp or street gang finds her as well. This is part of storytelling. Heck, it's not one way. It's suggested that before Gambit was found by Jean Luc, he was a slave of all kinds (ALL kinds) to a villain called the Pig. It's a nasty truth of reality.

[anyajenkins]

Don-you forgot Milligan and Pulse in your list in your first post, lol, I'd rather forget that too, but this is for science!