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  1. #451
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    You say regression

    Others say back to basics.

    If you stretch a character too far from their basic premise, she snaps.

    The Kyles and Yost X-23 stories are what I want. With the illusion of growth. You can’t move a character to an ending.

    We need her monthly, natch!
    Flashback stories would be fine, IMHO, however going "back to basics" would make hash out of what's been established since. On top of that, I'm not sure if there's anything new to be done with the pre-Wolverine, "trying to undo her programming" Laura Kinney. (Interesting though: while the original story may have ended, they've taken up a new one. Let's see where that one goes.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  2. #452
    Astonishing Member dan12456's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Because nothing says Quality Comics like repeating the exact same stories that have already been done.

    Screw that. Laura's not X-23 any more. She is not the person she was when she was introduced. What the hell is the point in just resetting her back to that person? Why the hell would I give a single shit about the character if I know for a fact that she will never be allowed to actually grow? That inability to experience permanent growth is why I stopped caring about the old characters in the first place. Marvel declaring that Laura is one of those characters whose personal growth will always be undone would be the quickest way to make me lose interest in her.

    So screw the X-23 codename. Let her stay Wolverine. I don't give a shit if Logan wants the name back. Fine, have two Wolverines. Or if the idea of two people using the codename is that horrible to think about, if it's absolutely necessary that Laura give up the Wolverine name so the asshole dude can be the only one, fine, give her a new codename. But don't have her go back to X-23. She renounced that. It was a pretty strong moment. Don't just throw that out the window because the Big Two is terrified at the prospect of permanent changes.
    Agreed. Big two being the big two I'm sure she will lose the name to Logan. But PLEASE give her a new identity that allows her to keep her progress.
    Current Pull: Lazarus, The Realm, Seven to Eternity, Aquaman, Flash, Justice League Dark, Green Lanterns, The Immortal Men, Sideways, Black Panther, Captain America, Daredevil, Death of the Inhumans.

    Future pull: Justice League Odyssey.

  3. #453
    Astonishing Member Xalfrea's Avatar
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    Interesting that it's being seen as a demotion considering that some people were irate when Sam Wilson went back to Falcon, calling that a demotion, when there's plenty of arguments that the Falcon name has just as much merit as Captain America.

    So why not X-23 and Wolverine in this case? I admit I wouldn't like it either if Laura were to lose the name, but just wondering.
    My Pull List: Ms. Marvel and all her team books

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan12456 View Post
    I love how you refer to your old posts as "someone else" to make it sound like there are more people making your argument LOL
    Wasn't referring to my old post. I was actually referring to this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by nickytesla96 View Post
    I mean I know this is just internet fan hype culture, but think y'all just need to chill and wait for solicits. The whole impatient/alarmist "I'm confused/what's going on?/I just wanna know" rhetoric for news about comics you're not gonna preorder until April is kinda extra.

  5. #455

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalfrea View Post
    Interesting that it's being seen as a demotion considering that some people were irate when Sam Wilson went back to Falcon, calling that a demotion, when there's plenty of arguments that the Falcon name has just as much merit as Captain America.

    So why not X-23 and Wolverine in this case? I admit I wouldn't like it either if Laura were to lose the name, but just wondering.
    Stripping her of the Wolverine mantle just to give it back to that boring old prick Logan would be insulting her enough, given she's earned the mantle. Having her go back to X-23? That would just be declaring that progress is an illusion and characters can only ever be who they were at a very specific point in time. Laura rejected the X-23 moniker. She rejected it pretty spectacularly. She declared, flat-out, that she is not X-23.

    So her going back to being X-23 is just ignoring a pretty goddamn fundamental moment in her development.

    Just because some fanboys are unable to get over the fact that she was introduced as X-23.

  6. #456
    Incredible Member mreddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klynn View Post
    Apparently? If true, it will be sad to have Tom Taylor leave Laura since he's done such a great job with her. And I can't imagine they'll abandon Gabby.
    There's X-Men Red plus Gabby's gotten too major for them to ignore now.

    Unlike Runaways tossing Klara away, I don't think that'll be a issue but her reverting back to X23 would make no sense considering we had 2 big story lines closing that chapter in her life.

  7. #457
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Stripping her of the Wolverine mantle just to give it back to that boring old prick Logan would be insulting her enough, given she's earned the mantle. Having her go back to X-23? That would just be declaring that progress is an illusion and characters can only ever be who they were at a very specific point in time. Laura rejected the X-23 moniker. She rejected it pretty spectacularly. She declared, flat-out, that she is not X-23.
    Fresh Start seems to be all about that illusion of change .
    Just because some fanboys are unable to get over the fact that she was introduced as X-23.
    Problematic as it is, it'll probably always be the name most associated with her along with Wolverine.

  8. #458
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalfrea View Post
    Interesting that it's being seen as a demotion considering that some people were irate when Sam Wilson went back to Falcon, calling that a demotion, when there's plenty of arguments that the Falcon name has just as much merit as Captain America.

    So why not X-23 and Wolverine in this case? I admit I wouldn't like it either if Laura were to lose the name, but just wondering.
    In the case of "Falcon," it's not inherently derogatory. In recent storytelling, "X-23" has become not a codename, but a dehumanizing slur that basically equates Laura with the killing machine the Facility wanted her to be, not the human being she is:

    Kimura (in All-New Wolverine #16): "You’re not Wolverine. You’re not a hero. You’re not even human. You weren’t born. You were built. You don’t have a name. You’re a letter and a number. ‘X-23’."

    Jean Grey (in All-New Wolverine #17): "You’re not X-23. You’re more than a letter and a number. You have a name. Laura Kinney. You’re not a puppet. You weren’t built. You were born. You’re human. You’re a hero. You’re Wolverine."

    Laura Kinney (in All-New Wolverine #180: "I'm not X-23. I'm not your [Kimura's] experiment. I'm not your **** property! You are the last person who will ever think they can own me. No one owns me! I'm not a thing."

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Problematic as it is, it'll probably always be the name most associated with her along with Wolverine.
    Well, there is a difference between "in-universe" usage and out of universe usage.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #459
    King Kong Winter_fury's Avatar
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    Uhmm did i miss something. Saying that x is no longer going to be wolverine? The only thing that we got right now is that she is getting a new book probably named X-23 and i get that from a maketing stand point. They not just going to give her a new codename and punt that in front of the book. And for all we know that just how the podcasters refer to her instead of calling her laura. The book could be called X-23: Wolverine for all we know. All i got of that is that she is just getting a new book and not they going to regress her whole charater.

  10. #460
    King Kong Winter_fury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, there is a difference between "in-universe" usage and out of universe usage.
    I think thats whats going to happen the new books going to be called X-23. Just like when aaron was writing weapon x it was just the title of the book logan wasn't going around calling him self weapon x and the other heroes also weren't.

  11. #461
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalfrea View Post
    Interesting that it's being seen as a demotion considering that some people were irate when Sam Wilson went back to Falcon, calling that a demotion, when there's plenty of arguments that the Falcon name has just as much merit as Captain America.

    So why not X-23 and Wolverine in this case? I admit I wouldn't like it either if Laura were to lose the name, but just wondering.
    Yeah, the problems with Sam switching back were that there'd been another Falcon introduced, and a patriotic themed sidekick for Sam as well (Patriot) during Spencer's run. Spencer presumably planned for Patriot to be running around with Sam as Cap, not Sam as Falcon, and now teen Falcon has the problem Riri Williams had when introduced. He needs a new name (not my opinion - he's said as much in both Falcon and Champions). There was also the Generations one-shot, that series is now turning into a big lipped alligator moment. Of the ten legacy heroes featured there, we've already seen two give them up (Sam as Cap, and Jane Foster's Thor), solicits indicate Amadeus will be done as Hulk too, so Laura makes four. I think five of the other six who had one shots (Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Spider-Man, Hawkeye, Ironheart), as well as Nova who should've had one but didn't because his solo was axed, should be safe. We know teen Jean Grey's time will be finite. So half the one-shots were about legacies that didn't stick.

  12. #462
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    They could call her book Wolverine Legacy if they're so intent on returning Logan to the mantle. Anything is better than X-23.
    Falcon is a totally different deal. There's nothing derogatory in Falcon's codename, the character never renounced it in a big character moment like Laura did.

    The biggest mistake they made with Falcon was not give him the kind of creative team and push he had as Cap. They didn't commit to making the Falcon identity a success like they did Black Panther. No matter how good the writing in his solo is, anyone can look at the book and see it was no longer a priority at Marvel. They didn't even bother giving him a decent costume.

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    They could call her book Wolverine Legacy if they're so intent on returning Logan to the mantle. Anything is better than X-23.
    Falcon is a totally different deal. There's nothing derogatory in Falcon's codename, the character never renounced it in a big character moment like Laura did.

    The biggest mistake they made with Falcon was not give him the kind of creative team and push he had as Cap. They didn't commit to making the Falcon identity a success like they did Black Panther. No matter how good the writing in his solo is, anyone can look at the book and see it was no longer a priority at Marvel. They didn't even bother giving him a decent costume.
    I don't see anything wrong with Sam's current costume. It looks like Falcon. What else should it look like?

    As for his current solo title, I think it's a very solid book. If people aren't responding to it, I don't know why. It certainly isn't because it lacks quality.

    If anything I think its struggle with sales just speaks to the whole commercial rationale for Legacy heroes. If readers think that a book is not essential, they're more likely to pass on it.

    When Sam had the Cap mantle, and his book was tied into Secret Empire's build-up and then ran alongside the event itself, there was more of an incentive to keep up with it. Now that his adventures are largely self-contained and aren't connected to a bigger event and he doesn't have the Cap title anymore, even though the book is - in my opinion - very good, it's easy for a lot of readers to skip it.

    Where are all those people who complained when Sam became Cap that minority heroes didn't need a Legacy title to sell and that they'd rather support a Sam Wilson Falcon book than have him take Steve's title?

    And where are those fans who always say they just want a book that doesn't tie into any events and isn't part of any crossovers?

    With Falcon there's a book that fits both of those criteria to a T - Sam's back to his own identity and the book is entirely self-contained - and yet it gets a complete shoulder shrug from most fans. This is why companies pay less attention to what fans say online and how they actually vote with their dollars. What fans say they want and what they actually show that they want are often two different things.

  14. #464
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I

    With Falcon there's a book that fits both of those criteria to a T - Sam's back to his own identity and the book is entirely self-contained - and yet it gets a complete shoulder shrug from most fans. This is why companies pay less attention to what fans say online and how they actually vote with their dollars. What fans say they want and what they actually show that they want are often two different things.
    It's something that leaves them in a terrible catch 22 when it comes to diversity.

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    It's something that leaves them in a terrible catch 22 when it comes to diversity.
    Exactly. If they give a legacy mantle to a female or minority, the cries ring out that Marvel is "forcing diversity" down people's throats. But if they have a female or minority in their own book and it doesn't sell and gets cancelled, people then complain that Marvel isn't doing enough to promote diversity. It's not a great situation. But fans vote with their dollars. And more often than not, Legacy heroes sell. At the same time, though, you can't keep the classic heroes out of circulation for too long.

    As you say, it's a Catch 22.

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