DC Rebirth What are you current thoughts

[Dzetoun]

Also, the New 52 was muddy from the get go. Do you remember how nobody could tell how, apparently, much of the Batman and Green Lantern continuities had continued on when some of the events that marked major turning points for those characters had been erased from the timeline? I do.

In fairness, that's still very much the case. Just looking at Batman, UTRH apparently happened but not quite as it once did, Barbara's career as Oracle was evidently very short and TKJ probably didn't go down exactly the same way, nobody knows about Dick's exact history with the Titans, Damian may or may not have been artificially accelerated in his development, and we aren't even sure if Tim's parents are alive or dead again. And that is in one of the more intact and well documented continuities.

Not saying that all of those things are crucial or that problems of this type aren't always present in comics. Still, even granting that Rebirth has addressed some issues, it is easy to exaggerate how much worse the New 52 was in this regard.

[Trey Strain]

But nobody asked for that and when you erase that backstory, you inevitably alienate the fans who have invested in that backstory over however many years. Plus, its not necessary to erase it in order to attract new readers. DC survived for decades with that complex backstory. Marvel has a continuity spanning 50+ years and, more often than not, it outsells DC. During the majority of the New 52 era, Marvel was even crushing DC more than usual. There's a reason for that. Its because the New 52 alienated DC's core fanbase.

And those guys did a hell of a lot of hollering on the message boards about what a "debacle" the New 52 was. But guess what? They kept buying the comics, and a lot of new people bought them too. So the New 52 sold very well.

Meanwhile, Rebirth, which a lot of older readers gushed about, didn't do nearly as well.

The moral: Grandfathers who read comics aren't going to stop, no matter how loudly they complain. They can't be the target market.

The grandchildren need to be pulled in as new readers. They're going to outlive their grandparents.

As to why DC has caught up with Marvel, there are two reasons for that -- DC's publishing its most popular titles twice a month, and Marvel's chasing away readers by aggressively replacing classic characters with minority members.

[HsssH]

I read less comics now. Partially due to having less time and partially due to not being a big fan of content that is being produced now.

Content has changed a bit and change in content was the entire point of Rebirth. And I don't like it that much. I think someone said that new52 took out bunch of complexity and Rebirth added it back. And it is mostly correct observation, but what it is missing is the fact that DC by removing and adding it back created even more complexity because things just don't slot back nicely into same place any longer.

For example Superwoman run is just weird and doesn't make any sense because entire reason behind its existence doesn't exist. We went from having two Supermans to having one from different (or purists would say from "real") universe who at some point became singular again as I understand, but who knows what will happen after Johns finishes his work and then Bendis gets green light. I obviously didn't count, but speaking a bit randomly there are probably around 30 Superman family issues from Rebirth era that are out of continuity already or just don't make any sense if you try to insert them into continuity. And I suspect that once Johns ends his work and Bendis starts his then that number will keep growing at rapid pace.

And some things clearly followed from new52 era like Nightwing referencing all his adventures as Grayson. Then some issues later he met Superman (when he was still Superman from another universe) and while talking him he via magic (I don't think that there can be reasonable explanation really) realized that he should be in Bludhaven. And we got some arcs about him settling there. Intent was clearly that these were his first adventures in Bludhaven so... all old stories (that Rebirth supposedly restored) with Bludhaven are out. But then I haven't read last 2-3 Nightwing arcs so it wouldn't surprise me if they continued shifting things around and now supposedly all those old stories actually happened, but those recent Nightwing arcs where he came to Bludhaven for the first time didn't.

Or how Rucka spent lots of issues explaining how previous 50 (or so) issues of Wonder Woman didn't happen.

Does anyone actually knows what happened and what didn't happen for any major character? I think not, but I'm 100% that DC will keep producing comics that explain these things while raising even more questions and probably retconing retcons that were supposed to fix problems created by retcons. It is never ending circle that I feel was accelerated by Rebirth and I don't find that enjoyable. Basically I wish that DC spent less time explaining why noticeable chunk of comics produced by DC don't matter/didn't happen and instead focused 100% on telling great new stories.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

In fairness, that's still very much the case. Just looking at Batman, UTRH apparently happened but not quite as it once did, Barbara's career as Oracle was evidently very short and TKJ probably didn't go down exactly the same way, nobody knows about Dick's exact history with the Titans, Damian may or may not have been artificially accelerated in his development, and we aren't even sure if Tim's parents are alive or dead again. And that is in one of the more intact and well documented continuities.

Yeah, because the Batman books have retained at least some New 52-ness to them and are constantly contradicted outside of the Bat-line. For example, when Batman Beyond (edited by the Superman office) established that Tim was Robin before the Batbooks did. But, at least it makes more sense with the expanded timeline, and we are even seeing the New 52 undone in the context of the Batbooks.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

And those guys did a hell of a lot of hollering on the message boards about what a "debacle" the New 52 was. But guess what? They kept buying the comics, and a lot of new people bought them too. So the New 52 sold very well.

Uh, no actually. You do realize that several New 52 titles were back to selling at the same levels as (or even lower than) their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts within a year or two, right? The only line that experienced a lasting sales bump was the Batman books and even then, Nightwing and the rest of the Bat-family couldn't maintain the N52 "bump."

You constantly gloss over this point, as if the New 52 was so successful. It actually wasn't. Again, many titles were selling the same levels they were before 2011 by 2013 or so. New 52 Superman was selling less than Pre-Flashpoint Superman by that time. The same thing was happening with Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and several other properties. And, to back up my assertions:

October 2010 - October 2013

Green Lantern #58 (81,626 units) - Green Lantern #24 (57,109 units)
Green Lantern Corps #53 (60,808 units) - Green Lantern Corps #24 (37,312 units)
Wonder Woman #604 (37,405 units) - Wonder Woman #24 (34,308 units)
Superman #703 (50,460 units) - Superman #24 (39,580 units)
Action Comics #894 (42,291 units) - Action Comics #24 (39,620 units)
Supergirl #57 (23,842 units) - Supergirl #24 (23,321 units)

There's many more examples. All numbers taken from Comichron.

And by 2014/2015, DC's marketshare had fallen to pretty much dismal proportions and it was losing ground fast. You may not want that to be true, but it is. The New 52 was a failed experiment.

Meanwhile, Rebirth, which a lot of older readers gushed about, didn't do nearly as well.

You yourself have been saying that DC has caught up with Marvel. DC's sales are much more stable in the Rebirth era than in the New 52 era.

The moral: Grandfathers who read comics aren't going to stop, no matter how loudly they complain. They can't be the target market.

Actually, the actual sales numbers and market share statistics tell us that the New 52 was a failed experiment. You may have wanted it to be something more, but once the sheen came off, people realized that the New 52 iterations of the characters had no substance to them. That backstory you're complaining about. Yeah, that's the thing that gives these characters depth and appeal.

The grandchildren need to be pulled in as new readers. They're going to outlive their grandparents.

The grandchildren don't need to be patronized. The don't need a complete wiping of continuity and a reboot in order to get into comics. In fact, a lot of the time that history is what attracts people to comics. These characters exude a sense of legacy that isn't there when the developments that defined them over however many years of storytelling has been wiped away.

I'm only in my mid-twenties. When I was younger. I didn't need a reboot to get into the DC Universe. I thought these characters were cool because of their history, not in spite of it. The New 52, however, eventually turned me off to DCU because the characters felt hollow.

As to why DC has caught up with Marvel, there are two reasons for that -- DC's publishing its most popular titles twice a month, and Marvel's chasing away readers by aggressively replacing classic characters with minority members.

Or people just like the Rebirth line. And, no, Marvel hasn't really experienced a mass exodus of readers.

[Buried Alien]

But nobody asked for that and when you erase that backstory, you inevitably alienate the fans who have invested in that backstory over however many years.

Pre-COIE continuity waves "hello" from a time before 1986.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Assam]

Pre-COIE continuity waves "hello" from a time before 1986.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Oh please, you two get into another debate over whether those are comparable examples are not. Those are always fun.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Pre-COIE continuity waves "hello" from a time before 1986.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

COIE was the scalpel to Flashpoint's sledgehammer. Plus, again, DC had restored a lot of Pre-Crisis continuity before Flashpoint came around and knocked it all down again.

Also, who here said COIE was the right thing to do? I didn't. I think COIE perpetrated the same sins as the New 52, but was (a) higher quality and (b) committed those sins less and at least with a more concrete plan of where everything went.

[Sacred Knight]

The New 52 was a very successful relaunch that eased back into normal DC numbers eventually.

DC Rebirth was a very successful relaunch that eased back into normal DC numbers eventually.

People will talk better about the one they like more, if there was one they like more. But both were successful initiatives. Anyone who claims otherwise is letting their bias get in the way.

[Trey Strain]

Uh, no actually. You do realize that several New 52 titles were back to selling at the same levels as (or even lower than) their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts within a year or two, right? The only line that experienced a lasting sales bump was the Batman books and even then, Nightwing and the rest of the Bat-family couldn't maintain the N52 "bump."

You constantly gloss over this point, as if the New 52 was so successful. It actually wasn't. Again, many titles were selling the same levels they were before 2011 by 2013 or so. New 52 Superman was selling less than Pre-Flashpoint Superman by that time. The same thing was happening with Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and several other properties. And by 2014/2015, DC's marketshare had fallen to pretty much dismal proportions and it was losing ground fast. You may not want that to be true, but it is. The New 52 was a failed experiment.



You yourself have been saying that DC has caught up with Marvel. DC's sales are much more stable in the Rebirth era than in the New 52 era.



Actually, the actual sales numbers and market share statistics tell us that the New 52 was a failed experiment. You may have wanted it to be something more, but once the sheen came off, people realized that the New 52 iterations of the characters had no substance to them. That backstory you're complaining about. Yeah, that's the thing that gives these characters depth and appeal.



The grandchildren don't need to be patronized. The don't need a complete wiping of continuity and a reboot in order to get into comics. In fact, a lot of the time that history is what attracts people to comics. These characters exude a sense of legacy that isn't there when the developments that defined them over however many years of storytelling has been wiped away.

I'm only in my mid-twenties. When I was younger. I didn't need a reboot to get into the DC Universe. I thought these characters were cool because of their history, not in spite of it. The New 52, however, eventually turned me off to DCU because the characters felt hollow.



Or people just like the Rebirth line. And, no, Marvel hasn't really experienced a mass exodus of readers.

Yes, the New 52 was successful. I've posted this link before, but you must have missed it.

http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2...e-rebirth.html


Nobody "patronized" young readers with the New 52. DC just stopped requiring people to hold a PhD in comixology for them to start reading comics. Some of the PhD holders got mad about it, but hey.


And yes, Marvel's sales suck.

https://medium.com/@jmillerworks/wha...g-a61368b26a34

[Brave Sir Robin]

For me, Rebirth is just another reboot that comic companies do periodically to boost interest. There is no difference to my enjoyment between New 52 and Rebirth. It goes title by title. Some I liked more in New 52, some I like more now. I don't see either as having an over arching affect on how I enjoy the individual characters or stories, probably because I read for the story and writer first. The universe itself is secondary and I guess can add and detract, isn't why I like a particular comic.

Rebirth increased my enjoyment of some titles like the Superman ones. It decreased my enjoyment of some of my favorites, like Batgirl and Batwoman. But to be honest, DC torpedoed those in the New 52 already but Rebirth only marginally effected them. Some of my favorites like Aquaman and Nightwing, are just as good before and after Rebirth.

The thing is, if in two years DC does another reboot like this, I will have the same reaction based on the writing and will gravitate the comics with the writers and stories I enjoy. Rebirth and New 52 are the same thing to me and will be when the next one comes along.

[Trey Strain]

More on Marvel's woes.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/01...es-alone-2017/

[Buried Alien]

COIE was the scalpel to Flashpoint's sledgehammer.

There are volumes and volumes and volumes of Earth-One, Earth-Two, Earth-Three, Earth-Four, Earth-S, and Earth-X stories and characters that strongly suggest otherwise.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes, the New 52 was successful. I've posted this link before, but you must have missed it.

http://comicandscreen.blogspot.com/2...e-rebirth.html

You keep using the same straw man, but it completely misses the actual reality of the titles' sales numbers and the reasons behind the sales. Firstly, notice how Marvel and Image also grow throughout that same period? Yeah, that's because the comics market itself grew in 2011 onward, benefitting all publishers. It really had nothing to do with the New 52. Also, look at how DC's entering another slump by 2015 while Marvel still had an upward trajectory? Yeah, that's because people were starting to tire of the New 52. You were here for the long period of DC steadily losing marketshare to Image and Marvel, correct?

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/11...f-the-top-ten/

Also, as established by the actual sales numbers of the titles, many of DC's titles were underperforming from where they were before the New 52. That's just a fact. Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern, etc. all sold less than what they were doing before 2011. Again, check the numbers. DC got by on Batman and Johns's Justice League, essentially. The rest of the characters were in a worse place during the New 52.

And you know who apparently disagrees with you? DC themselves. They wouldn't have reversed course if the New 52 was doing such a great job or if they thought it was sustaining their audience.

Nobody "patronized" young readers with the New 52. DC just stopped requiring people to hold a PhD in comixology for them to start reading comics. Some of the PhD holders got mad about it, but hey.

You never had to have a phD to read comics. The idea that the continuity was "cumbersome" is the most flawed argument I've ever seen. You could have picked up any #1 before Flashpoint and followed along with the story contained therein. There were jumping on points before Flashpoint. Also, ever hear of Wikipedia? Or any number of sites for people to simply dig up info about a character if they wanted?

And yes, Marvel's sales suck.

https://medium.com/@jmillerworks/wha...g-a61368b26a34

Again, the idea that Marvel's diversity is killing its sales is a straw man: https://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-did...s-comic-sales/

Marvel is still making more money than DC and its sales are pretty much neck and neck with DC. Also, in general, the comics market itself is down, so that's also a contributing factor. But what's funny here is that, what's allowed DC to catch up with Marvel, has been the Rebirth initiative. You know, that thing you've been railing against.

In the end, Rebirth has been more successful than the New 52, not only because it did comparable numbers, but also because its much better received. Critics and pretty much the whole comic community hated the New 52. It wasn't just fans on comic book forums, it was professionals in the industry, people who cover comic-book news, and retailers. When running a business, short term sales bumps aren't what you want to focus on. You want to focus on building goodwill among the audience so that they trust your product, which leads to sustained long term sales.

Also, as to your point about New 52 "simplifying" the DCU, here's an article that pretty much points out how that argument has no legs.

In the New 52, all of DC’s superhero series were canceled and 52 new ones were relaunched in an alternate reality. There, all the classic characters were younger and their origin stories were revised and reintroduced. Theoretically, this was supposed to make the comics easier to understand — all the old continuity was erased, so a novice reader wouldn’t need to have read anything that had gone before. For a few months, it looked like it was working. Orders from retailers spiked, putting DC ahead of Marvel for the first time in years.

That bump was not to last. By the start of 2012, Marvel was back on top, and it stayed there. It wasn’t hard to see why. The new DC continuity was supposed to simplify things, but the company had tried to eat its cake and have it, too: They didn’t want to erase certain classic narrative elements from the past, and incorporating them into the new timeline made for some baffling contradictions. For example, the new version of Batman was a guy who’d only been operating for a few years … but somehow, he’d already died, come back from the dead, and worked with three different sidekicks. On top of that, some beloved characters were totally wiped away. Others were reimagined with new attitudes or backstories that eschewed much of what had made them cool. Sales were dismal and reviews were brutal. By mid-2015, the New 52 experiment had more or less failed.

No one saw that more clearly than DC Comics co-publishers Dan DiDio and Jim Lee. Standing in the sun-drenched lobby of this year’s New York Comic-Con, DiDio recalled to me what it was like to be the public face of DC at that convention’s 2015 installment. “We were met at a couple of panels with a level of apathy that I hadn’t seen for a very long time,” he said in his Noo Yawk basso profundo. “There was a disconnect with the fan base, more than we’d even perceived. It felt palpable. Nobody was really into the stories. We might’ve gone a little bit too far with some of the New 52 stories and lost the connective tissue that people really used to identify with our characters.”

So, in short, the New 52 was not good for DC, despite your protestations otherwise. DC itself seems to have taken the position that it was a mistake.

[cranger]

Also, as to your point about New 52 "simplifying" the DCU, here's an article that pretty much points out how that argument has no legs.

That article does not say that the New 52 did not simplify the DCU, it says that they were telling crappy stories and turned the characters into pale, miserable versions of their iconic selves. As someone who was curious about DC early 2011 but found it hard to get into until the New 52 I can vouch with as much officialism as possible that it was very simplified.