Civil War Without The Foolish and Evil Actions of The Pro-Reg Side

[XPac]

it still devolved into a playground fistfight. and Cap was still the one acting entirely on emotion.

When people are going to kill your friend, then yeah... emotion would play into your motivation. Steve was willing to allow Bucky to be taken into custody... he just wasn't willing to allow BUcky to be killed for actons he knows he wasn't really responsible for. But that's Steve.

Though Stark in round 2 was the one acting on emotion when he realized a brainwashed Bucky killed his parents. Again, that's pretty understandable too.

[Michael Watkins]

When people are going to kill your friend, then yeah... emotion would play into your motivation. Steve was willing to allow Bucky to be taken into custody... he just wasn't willing to allow BUcky to be killed for actons he knows he wasn't really responsible for. But that's Steve.

Steve did not know that his friend was innocent. and Bucky seemed quite willing to kill the people who came after him. he was, legitimately, a fugitive from the law. Steve played favorites and risked lives, in the process. he played right into Zemo's hands/proved him right. he should have paid for a top notch lawyer, instead.

Though Stark in round 2 was the one acting on emotion when he realized a brainwashed Bucky killed his parents. Again, that's pretty understandable too.

what set him off was Steve withholding that information. it's just like in the books. Steve makes a big problem much larger by not trusting his co-workers.

[XPac]

it's common sense that a group like the Avengers needs to answer to someone. they were entering other countries without permission and destroying ****. lives were lost. people wouldn't except this of real world law enforcement officers. why should the Avengers be above it?



costumed heroics/vigilantism is blatantly authoritarian



no different from foid cards and driver's licenses - they aren't going to just take your word on it that you can properly operate a motor vehicle - common sense

Drivers liscenses might be comparable to a super HERO registration act... but not a super HUMAN registration act. There's a big difference legally speaking between the government registering you for your actions and them registering you because you're simply different.

There is a viable idea somewhere within the SHRA, but ultimately it went way to far and that's why it ended up blowing up in their faces. That's why everyone, including the US government itself, eventually turned on it. When you're sending armed troops to arrest Luke Cage for sitting on his living room couch 30 seconds after the law has passed, then you're probably going too far.

[Michael Watkins]

Drivers liscenses might be comparable to a super HERO registration act... but not a super HUMAN registration act. There's a big difference legally speaking between the government registering you for your actions and them registering you because you're simply different.

superhero is such a corny concept to begin with. there's very little difference between a "good" costumed vigilantism and some nut who is simply convinced of their own rightness. Speedball was acting as a "hero" when he got those kids killed. and everyone of them stood by when they were cataloguing mutants.

[XPac]

Steve did not know that his friend was innocent. and Bucky seemed quite willing to kill the people who came after him. he was, legitimately, a fugitive from the law. Steve played favorites and risked lives, in the process. he played right into Zemo's hands/proved him right. he should have paid for a top notch lawyer, instead.



what set him off was Steve withholding that information. it's just like in the books. Steve makes a big problem much larger by not trusting his co-workers.

The thing is, Steve didn't need to be 100% sure his friend was innocent in order to be opposed to Bucky being killed on sight. He only needed to know that there was a possibility that he was innocent. Again, had they simply chosen to take Bucky into custody, Steve would have gone along with that. Yes, Bucky was a fugitive from the law... but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to proper due process especially if there's a possibility he's not actually responsible for his actions.

What's a top notch layer doing to do? Jump in front of the bullets they were firing at Bucky? Not really going to help at that point.

[XPac]

superhero is such a corny concept to begin with. there's very little difference between a "good" costumed vigilantism and some nut who is simply convinced of their own rightness. Speedball was acting as a "hero" when he got those kids killed. and everyone of them stood by when they were cataloguing mutants.

We can use the word vigilante if you want... the point being that requiring heroes to register for the act of fighting crime is reasonable. But just being super human is a different matter entirely. If a super human is committing no violations of the law, then your justification for forcing them to register is very very sketchy.

[Tony Stark]

what set him off was Steve withholding that information. it's just like in the books. Steve makes a big problem much larger by not trusting his co-workers.

If he would have told Tony sooner. Tony could have had more time to handle the truth. Not saying he would have acted different when he saw Bucky. but Steve should have told Tony as soon as he found out. Steve was always knocking Nick Fury from with holding the truth and he was doing the same thing to Tony.

[Michael Watkins]

If he would have told Tony sooner. Tony could have had more time to handle the truth. Not saying he would have acted different when he saw Bucky. but Steve should have told Tony as soon as he found out. Steve was always knocking Nick Fury from with holding the truth and he was doing the same thing to Tony.

Tony would have taken Buck down, hard. but he wouldn't have let him be executed; not knowing that he might have been brainwashed (plus, he's Steve's friend). they should have worked together.

[Michael Watkins]

The thing is, Steve didn't need to be 100% sure his friend was innocent in order to be opposed to Bucky being killed on sight. He only needed to know that there was a possibility that he was innocent. Again, had they simply chosen to take Bucky into custody, Steve would have gone along with that. Yes, Bucky was a fugitive from the law... but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to proper due process especially if there's a possibility he's not actually responsible for his actions.

What's a top notch layer doing to do? Jump in front of the bullets they were firing at Bucky? Not really going to help at that point.

Steve could have asked to lead the capture. instead he started beating up people who risked their own lives for their countries. he should have convinced Bucky to surrender (or taken him down, himself).

[Michael Watkins]

We can use the word vigilante if you want... the point being that requiring heroes to register for the act of fighting crime is reasonable. But just being super human is a different matter entirely. If a super human is committing no violations of the law, then your justification for forcing them to register is very very sketchy.

from what I saw, it was only the supervillains who were forced.

[XPac]

Tony would have taken Buck down, hard. but he wouldn't have let him be executed; not knowing that he might have been brainwashed (plus, he's Steve's friend). they should have worked together.

Working together was sort of out of the question once Stark was taking orders from the people who were ordering that Bucky be shot on sight.

Stark wanted to work within the system... and he can't be faulted for that. But this is a case where the system was acting wrongly, and the only way to help Bucky and stop Zemo was to go outside of the system. Again, had they not had shoot on sight orders against Bucky Steve was willing to go along with them. But Steves hand was essentially forced by that point.

[XPac]

from what I saw, it was only the supervillains who were forced.

Hill tried taking Steve into custody before the law was even passed.

There were plenty of non villains who were arrested for not complying with the SHRA. The law simply went too far. Though in all fairness it needed to. If it were a reasonable law then the heroes wouldn't have been fighting over it in the first place and we'd have a pretty boring event.

[XPac]

Steve could have asked to lead the capture. instead he started beating up people who risked their own lives for their countries. he should have convinced Bucky to surrender (or taken him down, himself).

Again, Bucky surrendering is not an option once they decide to have Bucky shot on sight.

I'll say again, Steve was willing to cooperate with them when they were just trying to take Bucky into custody. But that no longer becomes an option once the decision is made for Bucky to be killed without any sort of trial.

[Alan2099]

Speedball was acting as a "hero" when he got those kids killed.

Place the blame where it belongs.

Nitro got those kids killed.

Or if you prefer, Damge Controll gave Nitro the power to kill those kids.

That was another weird thing about Civil War. Nobody wanted to blame the guy that actually killed the kids. Everybody wanted to blame the guy that was trying to stop it and who's friends also got killed.

[Michael Watkins]

Place the blame where it belongs.

Nitro got those kids killed.

Or if you prefer, Damge Controll gave Nitro the power to kill those kids.

That was another weird thing about Civil War. Nobody wanted to blame the guy that actually killed the kids. Everybody wanted to blame the guy that was trying to stop it and who's friends also got killed.

the exploding guy was thrown against a fuel tank.