The Elements of Magic in the DCU

[WonderScott]

I've been giving it some thought lately and am wondering if anyone has thoughts on how magic should be depicted or, better yet, connected or not connected in the DCU.

Meaning should someone like Circe versus Zatanna (Homo Magi) have or tap into different sources or ranges of magic? Some of the possible different types of magic I was considering are:

Angelic/Demonic - Neron, Zauriel, John Constantine, The Demon, Lord Satanus, Lady Blaze, etc.
Mythologically Divine - Circe, Hera, Isis, etc.
"Wild" Magic (not sure if this will be in continuity) - Green Lantern/Alan Scott
Circle of Eternity/Shazam - Shazam characters
Homo Magi (not sure if this is currently in continuity) - Zatanna, Sindella, etc.
Urban Magic - Traci 13
Fae Magic - Morgan le Fay, Oberon, Titania, etc.
Natural Magic - The Green, The Red, etc.

How do you see magic in the DCU? Do you think there should be a single or multiple sources? Do you think there needs to be a system and/or "rules," or do you prefer magic to be left undefined and up to the creators to use however they please? Also, depending on how you consider magic in the DCU, do you think magical items (tridents, totems, Helm of Fate, wands, etc.) can be imbued with any type of magic?

[Lee Stone]

What defines magic in the DCU for me:

1. The American Gothic Saga in Swamp Thing by Alan Moore. Starts off with John Constantine making his first appearance, all of his 'crew' of fairweather friends being hunted by a cult bent on bringing the end of the world, Swamp Thing's search for meaning, aquatic vampires, a controversial werewolf story, zombies, the famed Winchester house, a side-trip through Crisis on Infinite Earths, a fateful visit with the Parliament of Trees, a seance to end all seances, DC mystics being written like 'mystics' and not 'superheroes', a bold sacrifice that punctuated Zatanna's history where she lost the one thing she spent all her time looking for when she first appeared, another death that drives home the risks the group of mystics faced, a retired hero sacrificing his very sanity because the others couldn't do it without him, a fight with an omnipotent force that defeats both Dr. Fate and the Spectre and is only vanquished by the tools that Moore carefully set up from the first part of the Saga.

2. The Books of Magic mini-series by Neil Gaiman. Tim Hunter is given a tour of DC's magical side by the Phantom Stranger, John Constantine, Dr. Occult and Mister E. Quite possibly the closest thing to an in-canon textbook of DC's mystic corner. And one of the best introduction stories DC has ever done.

3. Outside the comics, we have the Mayfair Games Magic Sourcebook for the DC Heroes RPG. Written by Dan Greenberg, this manual came out in 1992, right after the Books of Magic mini-series. Remove all the game-specific stats, and you're left with a well-researched and in-depth exploration of DC's magic universe, complete with footnotes for in-comic references. A virtual Who's Who of almost all the magic characters up to that time (Raven and Trigon are not included, but there is an entry on Azarath that references them), it does a great job of consolidating everything that's happened up to 1992 into an easily digestible tome. It also serves as a great review of Books of Magic, as it follows right after.
I'd also recommend cross-reading the 1985-1988 Who's Who pages for the characters alongside this book. Aside from Books of Magic and the Doctor Fate mini-series, many of the characters had gone un-used in the years following Crisis and hadn't changed much. And most of what had changed was reflected in revised entries in the 1987 and 1988 volumes.

[K. Jones]

The RPG/gamer/MTG/Pokemon nerd in me would really like to see some rules established in how magic is presented in the DCU. I mean, it's magic and it's storybook stuff, so the rules are essentially there to be broken when the story demands it, but I still want to see some sort of persistent logic applied to magic in the DCU.

The Map of the Multiverse is sort of a start, I think. Certainly we know that magic tends to be access to higher planes of imagination-space, where purely magical type entities reside. Beyond sci-fi, which usually breaks the fourth-dimension of time (whether it be faster-than-light travel, hypertime vibration, whatever), magic is usually accessing the Fifth Dimension, and the map offers us eight primary, and paired/binary spheres where those magical energies flow from, ranging from the tangible techno-magic of the Kirby stuff in the New Gods spheres of existence, to the completely intangible and far more abstract spheres where Dreams and Nightmares flow from. In between we have the ... well, the in-between, the monotheistic Heaven and Hell of classic angels and demons and related musical beings, and Pagan Pantheon & Underworld spheres where more elemental classical beings channel from.

But it'd still be kind of narrow and weird to say that like, a elementalist-elemancer specializing in Earth Magic (the Markovs) or Water Magic (Mera of Xebel) or whatever is channeling that specifically from the Pagan Pantheonic sphere, because we'd want to say that all of those higher planes of existence have access to your magical classic elements. Or that all demonic possession hails from Hell (we've seen the Apokolips Evil Gods do it, too). Or that anyone has a premium on "Lightning", which is one of the BIG ONES that unifies DC magical and sci-fi characters. Or that because Zatanna uses "Word Magic", she's pulling from Heaven/The Voice/Angelic forces and channels forces similar but opposite to Etrigan's rhymes.

[CRaymond]

K. Jones, I was just about to invoke you.

Ever since you went all in on with your revision of Herald's origin and a mythology of music, I've been thinking that perspective and exploration of music theory should be a fundamental property of the DCU's multiverse. Marvel's BIG EFFING DEAL is the Infinity Stones, a set of visually different anchors of iconic concepts. DC's BIG EFFING DEAL should be the Life Equation and its opposite. Of course New Gods would see music as math, and its sum to be a mystery. Different Earths vibrate on different melodies... each Elseworld has its own themes and tone... magic is the manipulation of those fundamental rhythms.

This might throw a wrench in the expectations of the thread's original intent, but I really wanted to plant the seed that the DCU could be far more interesting from this perspective.

[Zero Hunter]

I wish they would bring back the concept of the Lords of Order and the Lords of Chaos. I liked how they operated in the DCU being to powerful to act themselves so the worked through agents like Doctor Fate, Hawk and Dove, Mordru, and others.

[HandofPrometheus]

We need some writers to focus on the magic side and space side of DC. They've been ignored for too long.

[WonderScott]

K. Jones, I was just about to invoke you.

Ever since you went all in on with your revision of Herald's origin and a mythology of music, I've been thinking that perspective and exploration of music theory should be a fundamental property of the DCU's multiverse. Marvel's BIG EFFING DEAL is the Infinity Stones, a set of visually different anchors of iconic concepts. DC's BIG EFFING DEAL should be the Life Equation and its opposite. Of course New Gods would see music as math, and its sum to be a mystery. Different Earths vibrate on different melodies... each Elseworld has its own themes and tone... magic is the manipulation of those fundamental rhythms.

This might throw a wrench in the expectations of the thread's original intent, but I really wanted to plant the seed that the DCU could be far more interesting from this perspective.

It doesn't throw a wrench in it all. For the purposes of discussion, we should be open to a lot current and past understandings/theories of magic in the DCU.

My impetus for the discussion is finding out if readers think/feel that more rules or definition around magic (and it's potential forms/forces/origins) would help to better define characters and/or give them different abilities and differentiation. It's a tall order to think about given the wide range of characters that have magic abilities themselves or were provided powers via magic. It's all on the table for discussion.

(Side Note: I've wanted to have a similar discussion around "divinity" in the DCU and how it relates to the New Gods as a singularity and the Olympian gods and other pantheons as they exist across multiple Earths in the multiverse...at least that's what DC expressed in Multiversity. I'm not sure if that's changed at all in Rebirth.)

[WonderScott]

The RPG/gamer/MTG/Pokemon nerd in me would really like to see some rules established in how magic is presented in the DCU. I mean, it's magic and it's storybook stuff, so the rules are essentially there to be broken when the story demands it, but I still want to see some sort of persistent logic applied to magic in the DCU.

The Map of the Multiverse is sort of a start, I think. Certainly we know that magic tends to be access to higher planes of imagination-space, where purely magical type entities reside. Beyond sci-fi, which usually breaks the fourth-dimension of time (whether it be faster-than-light travel, hypertime vibration, whatever), magic is usually accessing the Fifth Dimension, and the map offers us eight primary, and paired/binary spheres where those magical energies flow from, ranging from the tangible techno-magic of the Kirby stuff in the New Gods spheres of existence, to the completely intangible and far more abstract spheres where Dreams and Nightmares flow from. In between we have the ... well, the in-between, the monotheistic Heaven and Hell of classic angels and demons and related musical beings, and Pagan Pantheon & Underworld spheres where more elemental classical beings channel from.

But it'd still be kind of narrow and weird to say that like, a elementalist-elemancer specializing in Earth Magic (the Markovs) or Water Magic (Mera of Xebel) or whatever is channeling that specifically from the Pagan Pantheonic sphere, because we'd want to say that all of those higher planes of existence have access to your magical classic elements. Or that all demonic possession hails from Hell (we've seen the Apokolips Evil Gods do it, too). Or that anyone has a premium on "Lightning", which is one of the BIG ONES that unifies DC magical and sci-fi characters. Or that because Zatanna uses "Word Magic", she's pulling from Heaven/The Voice/Angelic forces and channels forces similar but opposite to Etrigan's rhymes.

Interesting perspective. Definitely thinking about at this and how it might be applied to different forms of magic in the DCU.

[Shockingjustice]

I like the idea of different types of Magic, but yeah it does need some rules. I remember there was a video on youtubr explaining hard magic systems and soft magic systems. If written correctly there could be a magic user as skilled or strong as the big 3. I'm curios since I don't read WW, how often does Wonder woman cover magic that isn't god based? Does she have any friends or ties to magic users of DC?

[Raijin]

I always thought magic should be undefined but at the same time there should be a set of consistent rules, so writers won't step on each other. When I think of "rules" I always think of Fullmetal Alchemist and their equivalent exchange. It sucks how we don't have any technomages in the DCU. It would be cool to have a character sort of hack into one of these forces, understand the inner workings of it and use it as they see fit.

[Agent Z]

I always thought magic should be undefined but at the same time there should be a set of consistent rules, so writers won't step on each other. When I think of "rules" I always think of Fullmetal Alchemist and their equivalent exchange. It sucks how we don't have any technomages in the DCU. It would be cool to have a character sort of hack into one of these forces, understand the inner workings of it and use it as they see fit.

Ritchie Simpson is a technomage.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Simpson_(New_Earth)

[WonderScott]

I like the idea of different types of Magic, but yeah it does need some rules. I remember there was a video on youtubr explaining hard magic systems and soft magic systems. If written correctly there could be a magic user as skilled or strong as the big 3. I'm curios since I don't read WW, how often does Wonder woman cover magic that isn't god based? Does she have any friends or ties to magic users of DC?

She's leading Justice League Dark right now, but it's an odd fit for me. (Despite my enjoyment of the first issue.) I get that Diana got her powers from divinity, whether from currently being biologically a demigod and Amazon and bestowed gifts from other gods, but I think of the latter as sort of transmuting her biology into being superpowered and not necessarily being magical in the way Circe or Zatanna or Doctor Fate or Wotan are magical and channel magical energies.

Diana's lasso is an enchanted weapon and that's about it for me. She's not a spellcaster.

[WonderScott]

I always thought magic should be undefined but at the same time there should be a set of consistent rules, so writers won't step on each other. When I think of "rules" I always think of Fullmetal Alchemist and their equivalent exchange. It sucks how we don't have any technomages in the DCU. It would be cool to have a character sort of hack into one of these forces, understand the inner workings of it and use it as they see fit.

I'm down with different types of magical energies and sources that are accessible by different types of characters, either innately or through study and talent. I'm also thinking of each source as having different effects and properties and being finite to a degree. Meaning that the more characters drawing on the source may weaken its potency for all users until it "refreshes" itself. Just something I've been considering to limit and challenge characters - especially those pulling power and energy from the same source. Magical items are their own class with some being able to be used by anyone, some tied to a particular character, and some that require particular magical energies being channeled through the user to be effective.

Traci Thirteen kind of has technomage qualities and Doctor Cyber of the Bronze Age was into technomysticism. (I wish she'd make a return to Wonder Woman or Adrianna, the current Doctor Cyber, would take on a few more of her attributes.)

I'm still working on developing and breaking down the sources and types of magic in the DCU. It's my version of sorting out all the Lantern Corps and how they work and operate, in a way.

[Ascended]

The RPG/gamer/MTG/Pokemon nerd in me would really like to see some rules established in how magic is presented in the DCU. I mean, it's magic and it's storybook stuff, so the rules are essentially there to be broken when the story demands it, but I still want to see some sort of persistent logic applied to magic in the DCU.

The Map of the Multiverse is sort of a start, I think. Certainly we know that magic tends to be access to higher planes of imagination-space, where purely magical type entities reside. Beyond sci-fi, which usually breaks the fourth-dimension of time (whether it be faster-than-light travel, hypertime vibration, whatever), magic is usually accessing the Fifth Dimension, and the map offers us eight primary, and paired/binary spheres where those magical energies flow from, ranging from the tangible techno-magic of the Kirby stuff in the New Gods spheres of existence, to the completely intangible and far more abstract spheres where Dreams and Nightmares flow from. In between we have the ... well, the in-between, the monotheistic Heaven and Hell of classic angels and demons and related musical beings, and Pagan Pantheon & Underworld spheres where more elemental classical beings channel from.

But it'd still be kind of narrow and weird to say that like, a elementalist-elemancer specializing in Earth Magic (the Markovs) or Water Magic (Mera of Xebel) or whatever is channeling that specifically from the Pagan Pantheonic sphere, because we'd want to say that all of those higher planes of existence have access to your magical classic elements. Or that all demonic possession hails from Hell (we've seen the Apokolips Evil Gods do it, too). Or that anyone has a premium on "Lightning", which is one of the BIG ONES that unifies DC magical and sci-fi characters. Or that because Zatanna uses "Word Magic", she's pulling from Heaven/The Voice/Angelic forces and channels forces similar but opposite to Etrigan's rhymes.

I very much agree with this.

On top of using the map of the multiverse as a basic blueprint, I'd pick a particular magic user, or a small group of magic users with complimentary mythos, and start there. Use that as the backbone of magic in DC, and expand outward, building other elements into the larger structure.

I don't think we need hard and fast rules, like you'd see with d&d, but we need some sort of guideline and basic topography so everyone is at least on the same chapter, if not the same page.

[Raijin]

I'm down with different types of magical energies and sources that are accessible by different types of characters, either innately or through study and talent. I'm also thinking of each source as having different effects and properties and being finite to a degree. Meaning that the more characters drawing on the source may weaken its potency for all users until it "refreshes" itself. Just something I've been considering to limit and challenge characters - especially those pulling power and energy from the same source. Magical items are their own class with some being able to be used by anyone, some tied to a particular character, and some that require particular magical energies being channeled through the user to be effective.

Traci Thirteen kind of has technomage qualities and Doctor Cyber of the Bronze Age was into technomysticism. (I wish she'd make a return to Wonder Woman or Adrianna, the current Doctor Cyber, would take on a few more of her attributes.)

I'm still working on developing and breaking down the sources and types of magic in the DCU. It's my version of sorting out all the Lantern Corps and how they work and operate, in a way.

Hmmm. Kind of like a wifi router. I think you may be on to something. But would it effect people in other universes as well? If everyone else is drawing power from The Red, would that effect my powers if i were on Earth-30 or something?