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  1. #16
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    Please correct me if I'm remembering wrong/heard wrong/crazy.

    Bendis' interview seems to heavily suggest that DiDio has a publishing plan of sorts (tied to the 80s somehow) that's going to be employed in the coming year and beyond.

    DiDio went after Bendis and apparently had a "new direction" for the Superman titles in mind, which seemed to appeal to Bendis.

    We know some titles are being canceled, more than just those in the Superman corner of the DCU.

    Johns was clearly in charge of the thematic and publishing side of Rebirth. There were rumors that Johns had a group of editors/creators loyal to him and that DiDio did as well, though Johns was calling the shots while DiDio (and Lee IIRC) were not as directly involved.

    Doomsday Clock is now delayed and there's more work for Johns at DC Films. This seems to be the result (speculative) of workload issues, but it could also be more. We may not know the full story, but it could be that rewrites are involved in DiDio is now in a stronger position of authority than during the Rebirth era.

    There have been rumors of a Crisis-type event, allegedly with King involved.

    If all or even some of this is true, are we looking at DiDio calling for Doomsday Clock to be rewritten in places to accommodate his new plans? This would also have the effect of sidelining what was pushed as a massive event (Watchmen sequel) in favor of Bendis on Superman and whatever DiDio's plans are.

    I know that DiDio wasn't solely responsible for the New 52, but he was responsible for a good deal of it, most egregiously, the removal of superhero relationships and marriages.

    This could very well mean that Johns' plans for Superman (the central character to Doomsday Clock's story, per early interviews) have been rewritten or jettisoned entirely. The thought that DiDio's bizarre hatred for happy superheroes and an unproven Bendis could combine to yet again alter Superman for the worst is beyond unsettling.
    I think you're being overly paranoid.

    Geoff Johns outranks Didio by several magnitudes. Didio simply doesn't have the power to demand major rewrites of Doomsday Clock. What is more likely is that the focus of Johns & Franks story changed from being a continuity revamp instigated by Doctor Manhattan to a more philosophical story pitting cynicism against hope. As a result, Didio has had to pivot to accommodate for Johns & Franks change in direction. I believe Metal, which Didio originally wanted to be called "Dark Crisis", is the first step, and the New Age of DC Heroes and No Justice is step two.

    The creation of various continuity-light imprints like Zoom, Black Label and Earth One are also part of that plan. While Didio has made a sizable number of mistakes and miscalculations, he's also savy enough to learn from them.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    If Johns is truly moving over to the movie end of things it would make sense he'd wash his hands of the comics end. Or, at the very least, severely scale back his influence. Which means undoing stuff like SO may very well be on the table. This would also make sense given that he got his start working with movies. A lot of this is shaping up more and more like last minute decisions. Especially if they are changing directions on Doomsday Clock. Like I said, they'd be crazy to get rid of the marriage (again) or Jon but I'm pretty sure everything else may be up for grabs.
    Listen, lady! I am thirteen years old and driving a Bat-hog through the Amazon on a Tuesday morning! I am ALREADY winning!

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its not been ten years. Its only been just under four years. Johns had his New 52 run on Superman with Romita Jr. I found that run extremely underwhelming as well, with his whims with the character being largely the same things that have always irritated me about his takes, so I have absolutely no reason to think whatever he might have had planned for him going forward would be anything my speed. I have enough knowledge of his work to form the opinion that he's not for me when it comes to Superman.

    As far as the executive end of things? I only half agree. I don't think anyone on the executive level, Johns included, gets Superman. If this was all Didio I'd be freaking out just as much as I do when Johns sticks his nose in this franchise. But at the very least he's not writing this. Could Bendis flop as far as I'm concerned? Sure, anything can happen. But I'm hopeful.
    Even working with the flawed New 52 version of Superman, Johns managed to write the character in a way that honored who and what Superman is and provided a new classic moment in Superman's confrontation of the armed robber without his powers. Johns demonstrated even through an inferior (though largely faithful) iteration of Superman that he truly does get the character. Compare that to DiDio, who has been pretty clear that he dislikes the character as he is and would rather "revamp" him to suit his own preferences. This is why Superman's books have largely suffered for the last 15-20 years, because Superman is frequently "retooled" to line up with the traits of other characters (Batman) that is more to DiDio or other executives and the public's liking. Johns may not understand Superman like Morrison or Busiek, but he didn't try to turn him into a beer-swilling, underpowered, cop-punching thug with a buzz cut. That was Yang, brought in for the DC You initiative which was DiDio's baby.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Given how old school and classic Bendis's tastes tend to be, I can't imagine he'd want to bring back the Kents in the first place. The entire concept of them being alive into his adulthood is a relatively small part of his history. It only existed between 1986 to 2011. That's only 25 years out of the eight decades that Superman's been around.
    25 years is nothing to sneeze at, especially since those years saw a resurgence in sales of Superman's comic book adventures and the Kents very much alive in Superman The Animated Series, Lois and Clark, and Smallville. They've been alive in more incarnations that have referenced them at all than dead.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That moment with the armed robber was the only good scene in his entire run. Didn't make up for the nonsense of the entirety of his stay. His most prominent contribution was a dumb new power whose only real goal was to allow him to write Superman as depowered whenever he wanted to, completely missing the point of the character. Granted he's not the only one to pull cheap tactics like this in Superman's history but its certainly not good company. Also a potentially interesting new ally that he ruined with a contrived "I'm really the bad guy all along" shtick, and finally introducing a mystery baddie whom it would take three years for others to eventually getting around to reveal (in disappointing fashion) that he's Superman's not-dead-dad. And along the way he of course erased some potentially interesting new aspects of Clark Kent's job as a reporter by stomping out the blogging angle to get him his safe status quo job at the Planet back. Which is another big gripe with the guy. Anything potentially interesting that other writers do, if it dares be a little different, Johns rolls back eventually because its not his personal ideal. Can he write Superman better than Didio? Sure. Johns is just an overall better writer than Didio. But that's not saying much. He wins by default. And again I'm not really comparing the two as if Didio were writing this, I'd be just as lamenting. Him just collaborating with another guy putting letter to page though, that worries me less. My eye will be on Bendis himself. If it sinks or swims it'll be because of him.


    That said, Johns did and still does have incredible strengths. I just think they lay completely outside the stratosphere of Superman.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-08-2018 at 09:18 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its not been ten years. Its only been just under four years. Johns had his New 52 run on Superman with Romita Jr. I found that run extremely underwhelming as well, with his whims with the character being largely the same things that have always irritated me about his takes, so I have absolutely no reason to think whatever he might have had planned for him going forward would be anything my speed. I have enough knowledge of his work to form the opinion that he's not for me when it comes to Superman.

    As far as the executive end of things? I only half agree. I don't think anyone on the executive level, Johns included, gets Superman. If this was all Didio I'd be freaking out just as much as I do when Johns sticks his nose in this franchise. But at the very least he's not writing this. Could Bendis flop as far as I'm concerned? Sure, anything can happen. But I'm hopeful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That moment with the armed robber was the only good scene in his entire run. Didn't make up for the nonsense of the entirety of his stay. His most prominent contribution was a dumb new power whose only real goal was to allow him to write Superman as depowered whenever he wanted to, completely missing the point of the character. Granted he's not the only one to pull cheap tactics like this in Superman's history but its certainly not good company. Also a potentially interesting new ally that he ruined with a contrived "I'm really the bad guy all along" shtick, and finally introducing a mystery baddie whom it would take three years for others to eventually getting around to reveal (in disappointing fashion) that he's Superman's not-dead-dad. And along the way he of course erased some potentially interesting new aspects of Clark Kent's job as a reporter by stomping out the blogging angle to get him his safe status quo job at the Planet back. Which is another big gripe with the guy. Anything potentially interesting that other writers do, if it dares be a little different, Johns rolls back eventually because its not his personal ideal. Can he write Superman better than Didio? Sure. Johns is just an overall better writer than Didio. But that's not saying much. He wins by default.


    That said, Johns did and still does have incredible strengths. I just think they lay completely outside the stratosphere of Superman.
    The only relevant strengths that Johns has in this context are that he understands the character and actually likes the character. His pre-Flashpoint run makes this clear, especially Secret Origin. He synthesized elements of all eras and extra-textual media into a new whole without changing the core of Superman. I don't disagree on Oz, which I hope will be redeemed somehow or erased in Action Comics 1000. Not sure what he was thinking there, but the bulk of his past work overrides that for me. I think much of Johns' work on Superman would have been far more successful if not for editorial interference. He and Busiek were taken off the books, his work was rendered moot by a ridiculous and unneeded reboot, and he had some interesting ideas (Clark telling Jimmy the truth) that were undermined by working with a flawed version of Superman and the DCU.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Secret Origin always read more to me less of a synthesizing and more just a cheap copy/paste job of the work of others. It got the core of Superman because it was other people's classic visions that Johns just crammed together, with none of the spirit and charm of the originals. There was no real effort there to create a modern origin, as retelling the origin wasn't even the point of the miniseries. It was just supposed to be some giant prologue to New Krypton that didn't even get the chance to pan out because midway through NK got so bad it had to be killed early (and to be fair, that's the whole point of Bendis's MOS too; he's going to be revisiting the origin to supplement his present day stuff...whether he still manages to do justice to whatever changes he might make to the origin to make it worthwhile in its own right to revisit, or if it bombs like the NK/SO tandem remains to be seen). As far as editorial interference, the only time I can recall things getting mussed up was with the Last Son delay, and that wasn't a result of interference rather Busiek falling ill and needing time to recover. Beyond that he got his big opportunity to make his mark with his second run, and did tell a couple decent stories there to boot. And as I recall it he wasn't booted, he left of his own accord after setting up New Krypton. And it wasn't the the New 52 that killed that. It died well before that because it got awful and killed sales.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-08-2018 at 10:54 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    If Johns is truly moving over to the movie end of things it would make sense he'd wash his hands of the comics end. Or, at the very least, severely scale back his influence. Which means undoing stuff like SO may very well be on the table. This would also make sense given that he got his start working with movies. A lot of this is shaping up more and more like last minute decisions. Especially if they are changing directions on Doomsday Clock. Like I said, they'd be crazy to get rid of the marriage (again) or Jon but I'm pretty sure everything else may be up for grabs.
    Have their been indications they're changing direction on Doomsday Clock? I've really liked what I've read so far (even if it's a bit slow).

  8. #23
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post

    25 years is nothing to sneeze at, especially since those years saw a resurgence in sales of Superman's comic book adventures and the Kents very much alive in Superman The Animated Series, Lois and Clark, and Smallville. They've been alive in more incarnations that have referenced them at all than dead.
    Aside from the DCAU Superman and Lois & Clark, the death of Pa Kent has been a major event in virtually every incarnation of the character, including Smallville, just as it was in Superman: The Movie and Man of Steel.

    If they really want to bring one of Clark's foster parents back from the dead yet again, at least make it only Ma Kent, who is perfectly capable of giving any parental advice he needs. Pa Kent's death is as important to Superman as Uncle Ben's death is to Spider-Man.

  9. #24
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansupes View Post
    Have their been indications they're changing direction on Doomsday Clock? I've really liked what I've read so far (even if it's a bit slow).
    None whatsoever, although Johns himself changed the focus of Doomsday Clock prior to even starting the story. He initially decided against doing a follow up to his DC Rebirth special, but changed his mind after Trump’s election because the story finally fell in place for him. This story is what eventually became Doomsday Clock.

    There is no evidence that DC editorial is interfering with Johns & Franks at all. In fact, they seem to be going out of their way to accommodate them, like allowing the entire maxi series to go bimonthly, thereby delaying the conclusion by a year.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansupes View Post
    Have their been indications they're changing direction on Doomsday Clock? I've really liked what I've read so far (even if it's a bit slow).
    We know there's a delay with one of the issues. It's being pushed back. I don't know if they've said why.
    Listen, lady! I am thirteen years old and driving a Bat-hog through the Amazon on a Tuesday morning! I am ALREADY winning!

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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    We know there's a delay with one of the issues. It's being pushed back. I don't know if they've said why.
    There isn't really a delay so much as the book is bi monthly now. The reason is because each issue is oversized and because of the story Johns wanted to tell from the start, he didn't want to compromise the story for it to come out each month. There really isn't any conspiracy until said otherwise for now.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Secret Origin always read more to me less of a synthesizing and more just a cheap copy/paste job of the work of others. It got the core of Superman because it was other people's classic visions that Johns just crammed together, with none of the spirit and charm of the originals. There was no real effort there to create a modern origin, as retelling the origin wasn't even the point of the miniseries. It was just supposed to be some giant prologue to New Krypton that didn't even get the chance to pan out because midway through NK got so bad it had to be killed early (and to be fair, that's the whole point of Bendis's MOS too; he's going to be revisiting the origin to supplement his present day stuff...whether he still manages to do justice to whatever changes he might make to the origin to make it worthwhile in its own right to revisit, or if it bombs like the NK/SO tandem remains to be seen). As far as editorial interference, the only time I can recall things getting mussed up was with the Last Son delay, and that wasn't a result of interference rather Busiek falling ill and needing time to recover. Beyond that he got his big opportunity to make his mark with his second run, and did tell a couple decent stories there to boot. And as I recall it he wasn't booted, he left of his own accord after setting up New Krypton. And it wasn't the the New 52 that killed that. It died well before that because it got awful and killed sales.
    Busiek had nothing to do with Last Son. It was delayed because of Kubert's illness. Also, the point of Secret Origin was to create an origin for post-Infinite Crisis Superman that synthesized multiple versions of the character. That was one of the goals of Infinite Crisis, to restore elements missing since COIE or in some cases, Zero Hour. Johns did indeed set-up New Krypton, but it was poor editorial decisions (taking Superman out of his main titles and replacing him with second-tier characters while he was moved to a new title) that "killed" the New Krypton concept.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I meant Kubert, my mistake.

    Creating a post-IC origin for Superman was never a priority. If it was, it would have indeed been done soon after. Instead they rested on their laurels until nearly Final Crisis, 3 years give or take, perfectly content letting everyone be confused over what was going on, whether things were post-Crisis, Birthright, or whatever. SO only came about specifically because it was supposed to tie in to New Krypton. Which better late than never I suppose, as Superman's origin did indeed need to be clarified due to DC's overall mismanagement, but for those reasons the origin did end up garbage. Its why the post-Smallville stuff in specific was just a generic mess with no direction. That was supposed to be where things delved into heavy NK themes and foreshadowing, but by that time the kill switch had been pulled and they were instead doing their get-out-of-jail free card plan B of War of the Supermen to kill it quick.

    In regards to taking Superman out of his own books, and putting him in WONK, while that definitely was a strong--probably strongest--reason for the failure, there's no indication that this wasn't part of the plan all along and Johns was very much involved. In that regard I don't put ALL the blame on him, as the entire collaborative effort failed. And I've never seen nor heard of any indication of any meddling with that collaborated vision. So he's certainly not the only one to blame, but he most definitely at the same time isn't exempt from any blame at all.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-09-2018 at 05:51 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #29
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    So Maguire has an excellent new page released teasing his #4 issue. Between that page featuring the new villain and Supergirl, suggesting the fight goes beyond whichever issue, amd Shaner mentioning that his issue happens to feature the Ma and Pa cover (somewhat implying that his story is not tied to them) I think it's safe to reiterate that MoS won't be the linear, six issue origin readers have been trained to expect.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    So Maguire has an excellent new page released teasing his #4 issue. Between that page featuring the new villain and Supergirl, suggesting the fight goes beyond whichever issue, amd Shaner mentioning that his issue happens to feature the Ma and Pa cover (somewhat implying that his story is not tied to them) I think it's safe to reiterate that MoS won't be the linear, six issue origin readers have been trained to expect.
    I kind of suspected that. All the interviews I've read with Bendis kind of suggest that it'll be done in flashbacks. Which means we may not get anything particularly new after all outside of a new ship.
    Listen, lady! I am thirteen years old and driving a Bat-hog through the Amazon on a Tuesday morning! I am ALREADY winning!

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