Nightwing: Can He Flourish In a Limited Location?

[JasonTodd428]

You say that like it'd be a bad thing, but it'd be the most interesting thing done with the character (if handled well) in a really long time.

I disagree with that. Having him as a part of a spy organization has been the most interesting thing done with him in literally decades IMHO. Making him an actual compulsive gambler, which doesn't fit his character at all IMHO, would be a terrible direction to take the character just for the sake of something unique. At most I could see him in a set up wherein he fakes such a thing but to have him actual be one is not something most fans would want to see.

[Godlike13]

One could argue that Dick is already a gambler who likes to gamble with his life. Gambling would take advantage of the setting, keep him free of any real commitment, and could challenge and play off character traits Dick is already known for. I don't know if it'd be the most interesting thing done with the character, but I think it could be a lot a fun and interesting. I actually think it would fit his character quite well actually.

[dan12456]

Chicago was interesting? Prankster and Zucco cant really be said to be better than Blockbuster and Judge, I'd even say they're worse by far.

Not so much Zucco, but I liked the rest of the supporting cast in Chicago, to each their own. But more importantly to my point characters like Pransketer and that corrupt cop represented aspects of the city. I agree Blockbuster does that as well, but he's about it that has any significance (I guess I'd consider that dude with the backwards head as well). And considering the length of time he's spent in Bludhaven, there should be way more. Not every arc needs that, but some should to make the location exciting.
And the Judge is so boring I've dropped a Dick Grayson series for the first time since I started buying comics...

[SiegePerilous02]

They can change location or try to fix up Bludhaven again but the same problems will always be there I think. When you anchor him to a single location you lose what makes Dick a unique character. He's at his best when he has the freedom to move around. He is a child of the circus. That is what defines his character. Movement and freedom. Tying him to a city for him to protect limits him as a character and puts him in a box and a role that other heroes already do and do much better. So it feels like he becomes just a lesser version of those characters.

As for Bludhaven specifically no matter how hard they try Bludhaven will never define Dick as a character. It just doesn't have the impact. It doesn't matter if they make it a casino town or a worse Gotham. It just doesn't have the deep rooted connection to Dick that you need. Batman was created in Gotham and it forms his identity. Same with Spider-man in NYC and Daredevil in Hell's Kitchen. These are location that defined those heroes and formed their hero identity. Bludhaven has never been that for Dick. He is from a circus, created Robin in Gotham, and created Nightwing in the Teen Titans. So when they say Bludhaven is his "home" or "defines" him it just doesn't connect with me. These are foundational problems that I don't think will ever be fixed. It is why writer after writer has failed to make it work because every writer is working from a foundation that is broken.

There is also the problem that there is nothing in Bludhaven too. None of the characters created there are that interesting. Same with the stories. It is all just so forgettable or unmemorable. The concept doesn't inspire creative stories. It is also not important enough to bring in any big top tier villains to operate in Bludhaven to challenge Dick as they are obviously better used elsewhere. Blockbuster is a dull grand nemesis and was only brought in originally to act as his Kingpin to Dick's Daredevil. There is just nothing about the concept that is unique to Dick or makes him stand out.

Very well said. All the major things that define Dick as a character happened long before Bludhaven came along. It has contributed nothing besides being a boring place to live when he's not with Batman or the Titans. The whole setup was Daredevil-lite. I'd rather read/watch the real thin in that case.

I like Shawn, but she'd work just as well living in Gotham, which he's inclined to visit periodically anyway.

I disagree with that. Having him as a part of a spy organization has been the most interesting thing done with him in literally decades IMHO. Making him an actual compulsive gambler, which doesn't fit his character at all IMHO, would be a terrible direction to take the character just for the sake of something unique. At most I could see him in a set up wherein he fakes such a thing but to have him actual be one is not something most fans would want to see.

Yes, barring his brief tenure as Batman II, it was the best thing to happen since the Wolfman/Perez NTT days. And we lost it to cater to the nostalgia of the Dixon days, which were never that great to begin with, and now he's stuck in the same rut as he was before.

[scary harpy]

The only idea that I agree with on this thread is that Nightwing owning a bar could be a good thing.

A bar must have staff…since Richard may leave (or not arrive) at any time. (Ah, the joys of super-heroics.) He would need a manager, security, servers and etcetera. (Watch Bar Rescue with Jon Taffer; great series!). The Run-Offs might fill some of these jobs. This staff would become his supporting cast. This bar and this supporting cast would invest him to the city.

Of course, the bar should have a circus theme.

[Assam]

Having him as a part of a spy organization has been the most interesting thing done with him in literally decades IMHO. .

Disagree there. I only read a handful of issues of Grayson but I found them pretty dull. Admittedly they were less dull than most Nightwing solo stories but that isn't a high bar from where I sit. For me, the last time some interesting stuff was being done with him was in Grayson's Titans, one of the only times Dick's never ending "Am I becoming Bruce?" conflict was done well.

Making him an actual compulsive gambler, which doesn't fit his character at all

I actually agree with Godlike13's reasoning of why it would make sense.

a terrible direction to take the character just for the sake of something unique.

You know I'm against completely changing characters in ways that make no sense (I certainly rant about it enough), but as I said, I think this would fit his character. Not saying it should be a constant in his life, but it could make for some good stories.

[The World]

I think that Seeley and Humphries have been going in the right direction with the evil Atlantic City concept but they need to push it further imo.

1. Do what the Superman franchise has failed or rather REFUSES to do with Metropolis. Make it the City of Tomorrow, if you believe that Dick is suppose to be Superman meets Batman then we need to get a little more scifi-esque up in this mother. Make the kind of cyber punk style hell hole where crime can flourish and Dick can have something to fight on a regular basis. Lets get kind of blade runner esque up in here with Gotham's gothic touches enhancing everything but keep the gambling town angle that's been seeded there already.

2. While you want to build up the location remember that Dick has had some pretty good times running to and fro. Let him have adventures abroad regularly if the writer chooses to and writers should have an interest in writing stories where Dick is out in the world and throughout the universe. Don't let Bludhaven become a cage or else it will just produce resentment in the fanbase. Frankly I think this might be more of a editorial blockade style thing though but who knows.

3. Stop with the everyday job stuff. Every single ones been unremarkable, guys a superhero through and through, that's his day job and his night job. It's what he's been doing since he was a kid and trying to push an everyday job on the character is like trying to give Goku a regular job. Stop following generic cape script and really try to put yourself in the mind of a person who's been training to be the best of the best since he was 10-12 years old, made all of his significant friends and girlfriends in his superhero life.

Also consistency is key with building your supporting characters. Svoboda got a fine start are a fine start imo but future writers need to keep pushing these character as a part of the world. Keep developing her and others.

Also no more apartments; it's unremarkable. Give him a base to chill in. Doesn't have to be the batcave, fortress, or the wonderdome but it needs to be somewhere he can put his stuff, sleep, and collect his thoughts. Maybe in the old Bludhaven that Humphries introduced.

[Jabare]

if they stop writing Nightwing like Batman Jr., as some writers have in the past, and just get creative with him than he absolutely can, but that remains to be seen

[oasis1313]

You say that like it'd be a bad thing, but it'd be the most interesting thing done with the character (if handled well) in a really long time.

It's a negative thing to do with the character, and Dick needs all the positives he can get.

[Korath]

You know something is wrong with Nightwing when writers (and editors) try to push him into the "Batman of Blüdhaven" (which already diminish his own brand, making him Batman-lite) without giving him a super-hero hangout. I mean, I like Duke Thomas (I think it's know by now) and he got his own base during his first issue in his first mini. Future writers (hopefully Tony Patrick) will already have that about him. But what does writers will have for Nightwing in the Blüd ? The Run-Off ? They are likeable, but they were clearly set with some kind of expiration date (at least I feel that way). Svoboda could be great but she'll be hard to develop beyond "Female Bullock" if she isn't fleshed out more soon. And In the last issue of Nightwing, we already saw how Dick's life was tearing at the seams. Which basically imply that he is unable to have a normal life alongside his super-heroing, not even in the fake way Bruce manages. Not really great either for the character...

[JasonTodd428]

Yes, barring his brief tenure as Batman II, it was the best thing to happen since the Wolfman/Perez NTT days. And we lost it to cater to the nostalgia of the Dixon days, which were never that great to begin with, and now he's stuck in the same rut as he was before.

Exactly.

Disagree there. I only read a handful of issues of Grayson but I found them pretty dull. Admittedly they were less dull than most Nightwing solo stories but that isn't a high bar from where I sit. For me, the last time some interesting stuff was being done with him was in Grayson's Titans, one of the only times Dick's never ending "Am I becoming Bruce?" conflict was done well.

Well like I said this is all just my opinion and to be honest with you, outside of NTT, I've never much cared for any of the Titans books so for me that is an extremely low bar. Nightwing isn't all the much better either IMHO because I can't really think of any particularly memorable story to come out of anyone's run there. That leaves NTT, DickBats and Grayson as the only times I've ever felt anything interesting was being done with the character. *shrug*

I actually agree with Godlike13's reasoning of why it would make sense.

Gambling ones life is a very different thing in my opinion from gambling money away because you're addicted to gambling. One is heroic and a strength, the other just isn't and comes with a host of negative baggage to boot.

You know I'm against completely changing characters in ways that make no sense (I certainly rant about it enough), but as I said, I think this would fit his character. Not saying it should be a constant in his life, but it could make for some good stories.

Again I disagree for the reason stated above. Like I said in another post I would be okay with him faking being a gambler for the sake of an investigation but beyond that is just too much for me. I really didn't like that they turned Roy into an addict back in the day and in my mind this would be just as bad.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well like I said this is all just my opinion and to be honest with you, outside of NTT, I've never much cared for any of the Titans books so for me that is an extremely low bar.

I'd say I have to agree with you. The fact that there have been very little, if any, significant contributions to the Titans mythos since Perez left the first time (!) says it all*. The lightning in a bottle effect of those two creators as a double act has never been topped. Even Wolfman on his own ran out of steam eventually.

I read Technic Imperative, albeit a loooooong time ago, and thought it was just ok. Nothing really stands out in my memory. Same with the handful of Dixon era Nightwing trades I read. Just serviceable, by-the-numbers comics. Continuity was tight and characters stayed true to themselves, but they also lacked ambition and style.

*Actually, since Perez left very shortly after Dick became Nightwing, I think it could be said his best years during that title were as Robin. That is a very small window of time for greatness for the Nightwing identity

That leaves NTT, DickBats and Grayson as the only times I've ever felt anything interesting was being done with the character. *shrug*

Aside from those three specific eras, his entire tenure as Robin elevates him as well, IMO. He was the one who wore the mantle the longest, made it iconic, and has significant ties to two of DC's biggest characters (Batman and Superman) due to it. He's arguably the fourth biggest character in the DCU, and in some periods eclipses Wonder Woman as the third member of the Trinity.

Which is why the character deserves far better than the "Nightwing Treatment."

[Badou]

If I was forced to keep Dick in a place like Bludhaven then I'd completely change it from the ground up. Turning it into a casino town makes it a bit better visually but it doesn't fix the core problems. That there is just nothing in Bludhaven interesting enough to keep Dick stuck there. So if Dick can't be a DCU character then I'd bring the DCU to Dick.

I'd redesign Bludhaven to be the haven for all manner of people, beings, and creatures across the DCU. Maybe though government involvement by pushing them to Bludhaven or just happenstance it became the place where odd things across the DCU congregated. So there are space aliens there, mutants, supernatural creatures, rogue people from Atlantis or random Amazonians, superhumans, normal crime bosses, and so on. All more than normal for big cities. This of course would be a mess visually but I'd have the city reflect that. So parts look very alien or futuristic, or dark and creepy. Also since this has been rooted into its history there are beings and creatures in normal jobs blended with the normal people. So there could be mutant police officers, alien running for local government, and so on. With so much in one city it would give Dick a lot to do, but also with so much in the city it might attract other bigger named characters or organizations to take notice of Bludhaven. You might get other heroes popping up to help control the vast range of villains that a city like that would produce. It isn't just Dick on his own in a city that doesn't feel like there is enough in it to occupy him.

Also with so much going on Dick could focus on what he wants. Which is to just be a hero trying to help people. I'd just have Dick set up a small private detective agency that is just a front for his hero work. Because there is so much going on in the city he'd have people and creatures with various problems coming to him for help as they might not feel comfortable going to the police or government. So he has a constant flood of cases and problems to solve and build on. Then because of the scale of the potential problems you have opportunities to have Dick use his DCU connections to help him.

This would make me more interested in Bludhaven, but the scale of this is probably too grand to do for a character like Nightwing. Not even Gotham or Metropolis are like this and there would probably be some conflict creating a city like this.

[SiegePerilous02]

If I was forced to keep Dick in a place like Bludhaven then I'd completely change it from the ground up. Turning it into a casino town makes it a bit better visually but it doesn't fix the core problems. That there is just nothing in Bludhaven interesting enough to keep Dick stuck there. So if Dick can't be a DCU character then I'd bring the DCU to Dick.

I'd redesign Bludhaven to be the haven for all manner of people, beings, and creatures across the DCU. Maybe though government involvement by pushing them to Bludhaven or just happenstance it became the place where odd things across the DCU congregated. So there are space aliens there, mutants, supernatural creatures, rogue people from Atlantis or random Amazonians, superhumans, normal crime bosses, and so on. All more than normal for big cities. This of course would be a mess visually but I'd have the city reflect that. So parts look very alien or futuristic, or dark and creepy. Also since this has been rooted into its history there are beings and creatures in normal jobs blended with the normal people. So there could be mutant police officers, alien running for local government, and so on. With so much in one city it would give Dick a lot to do, but also with so much in the city it might attract other bigger named characters or organizations to take notice of Bludhaven. You might get other heroes popping up to help control the vast range of villains that a city like that would produce. It isn't just Dick on his own in a city that doesn't feel like there is enough in it to occupy him.

Also with so much going on Dick could focus on what he wants. Which is to just be a hero trying to help people. I'd just have Dick set up a small private detective agency that is just a front for his hero work. Because there is so much going on in the city he'd have people and creatures with various problems coming to him for help as they might not feel comfortable going to the police or government. So he has a constant flood of cases and problems to solve and build on. Then because of the scale of the potential problems you have opportunities to have Dick use his DCU connections to help him.

This would make me more interested in Bludhaven, but the scale of this is probably too grand to do for a character like Nightwing. Not even Gotham or Metropolis are like this and there would probably be some conflict creating a city like this.

I would read the hell out of this.

This sounds like something Seeley would have come up with had he been able to, but I suspect editorial was all "No, you have to use Blockbuster and ****."

[Assam]

Nightwing isn't all the much better either IMHO because I can't really think of any particularly memorable story to come out of anyone's run there. That leaves NTT, DickBats and Grayson as the only times I've ever felt anything

I agree with you about Nightwing stories and when you take into account that I didn't like Grayson, I'm not a fan of DickBats and I didn't really feel anything for Dick in NTT (although the run itself IS growing on me), yeah, on top of my other issues with him, it isn't hard to see why he's long lost the favor I had for him as a kid.

Aside from those three specific eras, his entire tenure as Robin elevates him as well, IMO. He was the one who wore the mantle the longest, made it iconic, and has significant ties to two of DC's biggest characters (Batman and Superman) due to it. He's arguably the fourth biggest character in the DCU, and in some periods eclipses Wonder Woman as the third member of the Trinity."

I mean that period obviously does add to his "iconic" status, but I don't think there's any argument to be made that more than a few of those stories elevate his character. From the 40's through the 60's he was as bland and cookie cutter as 99% of the other heroes running around and the 70's didn't do too much to change that for him.

Since the 80's he's of course picked up more of a personality and depth, but I still find him one of the blandest heroes in DC's line-up. And the reason for that is also part of why I think the character lacks many stand-out stories when compared to his ridiculously high appearance count and, relevant to the OP, why he can't get his best stories in a limited location. Put simply, he has very few meaningful character flaws which are acknowledged in universe and all have them have been played out to death, both by him and by other heroes with similar flaws. I liked the gambling addiction idea because it's something that both made sense to me and would actually be new ground. As he is, Dick needs more interesting characters to bounce off of. Be it the Titans, BatFamily members, the colorful cast of Grayson or even from the recent Seeley run, Raptor. Dick works well bouncing off these characters because of his care-free and fun attitude and they in turn help make the stories they're a part of more interesting. By trapping Dick in a confined setting, he's mostly left to carry stories on his own, potentially with a limited support cast, and that's just not something his character is equipped for.