Nightwing: Can He Flourish In a Limited Location?

[Badou]

I would read the hell out of this.

This sounds like something Seeley would have come up with had he been able to, but I suspect editorial was all "No, you have to use Blockbuster and ****."

It would be so tough to pull off I guess, but I'd just like to have a setting like that were Dick still has so much freedom for stories even if he is just in one location.

I suppose the private investigator angle is a bit similar to Angel from Buffy too. The whole Angel Investigations thing, but I think it sort of works. He could do something else I guess. I'd also use it as an excuse for Dick to build up a small team to help him operate in Bludhaven. Like I'd also take Rose Wilson and use her in a role similar to what Kate Bishop is to Hawkeye over in Marvel. Some want Dick to have a "sidekick" type character and she could sort of fill that role for him to guide, but I'd mainly want to use her for her old Pre-New 52 precognition ability she had. I'd give her that ability back and expand on it more. Since in a city with so much going on and various threats Dick would need an edge to help him out and her precognition ability could serve as that, but that is just an idea.

[K Nikk]

If I was forced to keep Dick in a place like Bludhaven then I'd completely change it from the ground up. Turning it into a casino town makes it a bit better visually but it doesn't fix the core problems. That there is just nothing in Bludhaven interesting enough to keep Dick stuck there. So if Dick can't be a DCU character then I'd bring the DCU to Dick.

I'd redesign Bludhaven to be the haven for all manner of people, beings, and creatures across the DCU. Maybe though government involvement by pushing them to Bludhaven or just happenstance it became the place where odd things across the DCU congregated. So there are space aliens there, mutants, supernatural creatures, rogue people from Atlantis or random Amazonians, superhumans, normal crime bosses, and so on. All more than normal for big cities. This of course would be a mess visually but I'd have the city reflect that. So parts look very alien or futuristic, or dark and creepy. Also since this has been rooted into its history there are beings and creatures in normal jobs blended with the normal people. So there could be mutant police officers, alien running for local government, and so on. With so much in one city it would give Dick a lot to do, but also with so much in the city it might attract other bigger named characters or organizations to take notice of Bludhaven. You might get other heroes popping up to help control the vast range of villains that a city like that would produce. It isn't just Dick on his own in a city that doesn't feel like there is enough in it to occupy him.

Also with so much going on Dick could focus on what he wants. Which is to just be a hero trying to help people. I'd just have Dick set up a small private detective agency that is just a front for his hero work. Because there is so much going on in the city he'd have people and creatures with various problems coming to him for help as they might not feel comfortable going to the police or government. So he has a constant flood of cases and problems to solve and build on. Then because of the scale of the potential problems you have opportunities to have Dick use his DCU connections to help him.

This would make me more interested in Bludhaven, but the scale of this is probably too grand to do for a character like Nightwing. Not even Gotham or Metropolis are like this and there would probably be some conflict creating a city like this.

Maybe making the whole city like that would be hard, but having the place he hangs out in (between hero-ing) be like that is totally doable. A bar/club with a "we're open to anything" theme. Extraterrerstrial JL members might send distant relatives over to his bar ("I've got a friend in Bludhaven, tell him I sent you and you're looking for a job. That place is a little crazy, you'll fit in".) I do like the detective agency angle as well, but I prefer having a slightly larger supporting cast that a bar staff would give, and some more accidental involvement in cases (staff member having a personal issue with a debt collector - an ALIEN Debt collector who collects brains!, or Dick gets wind of something going down by the chatter in the bar). People start to realize that sharing your problem with staff at the bar can get you help, and people start to actively seek out the bar to get assistance. Dick is concentraing primarily on being Nightwing and isn't heavily involved in the day-to-day of the bar (except helping get the alien or other new staff settled) but uses it as a front to collect information and also make it a safe-haven for all manners of people, beings, etc like you said.

edit: heck, it could start out by having this safe haven/bar already exist but struggling and at some point Nightwing gets involved with helping them with something and when he realizes they are in danger of closing he decides to buy it to keep it running so it can keep functioning as a safe haven, and then just slowly he gets more involved. If JL relatives end up cycling through there then it would give an excuse for those JL or titans etc. to stop by on arcs.

[Badou]

I mean that period obviously does add to his "iconic" status, but I don't think there's any argument to be made that more than a few of those stories elevate his character. From the 40's through the 60's he was as bland and cookie cutter as 99% of the other heroes running around and the 70's didn't do too much to change that for him.

Since the 80's he's of course picked up more of a personality and depth, but I still find him one of the blandest heroes in DC's line-up. And the reason for that is also part of why I think the character lacks many stand-out stories when compared to his ridiculously high appearance count and, relevant to the OP, why he can't get his best stories in a limited location. Put simply, he has very few meaningful character flaws which are acknowledged in universe and all have them have been played out to death, both by him and by other heroes with similar flaws. I liked the gambling addiction idea because it's something that both made sense to me and would actually be new ground. As he is, Dick needs more interesting characters to bounce off of. Be it the Titans, BatFamily members, the colorful cast of Grayson or even from the recent Seeley run, Raptor. Dick works well bouncing off these characters because of his care-free and fun attitude and they in turn help make the stories they're a part of more interesting. By trapping Dick in a confined setting, he's mostly left to carry stories on his own, potentially with a limited support cast, and that's just not something his character is equipped for.

I still don't understand why you post in these threads when you dislike Dick's character. It makes no sense to me. The fact that you cast off stories where Dick has been great on his own and the reason why those stories were great speaks to how you don't want to view the character as anything other than being "one of the blandest heroes in DC's line-up". You like viewing the character like that because you dislike him. Giving him more faults won't change anything because if faults are all you care about in a character then you don't get what makes Dick as a hero so interesting.

[Doctor Bifrost]

I would like to see Dick Grayson in a location - a city - because that's where his civilian activities are. The idea of him being the owner of a bar and nightclub is actually pretty great.

The city can have low- to medium- level crime (medium-level includes some medium-level supervillains), which he fights as Nigthwing (there is nothing wrong with some street-level crime-fighting), and a number of interesting characters - some superheroes and supervillains, and non-super supporting cast - that he can interact with, along with visitors from his long superhero past.

There can be occasional large-scale threats to the city, but it shouldn't be constantly on the edge of collapse, alien invasion, or destruction. I see it as a more stable place than that. This would free Dick up to have story arcs that take him anywhere in the world, taking on major supervillains with wide-ranging, dangerous plans, and assisting (or fighting against) his old acquaintances in the world-wide spy business.

So: his city as a place for street-level adventures and a solid supporting cast, but stable enough that he can leave for far-flung globe-trotting adventures. The character is well-suited to both, and I would enjoy seeing the contrast.

I would not use Blüdhaven. Starting with its name, and then its early introduction, it was set up to be "Gotham but more explicitly violent and seedy." Which keeps him too close to "a version of Batman in his version of Gotham City." The current Atlantic City vibe is a little better, but the name Blüdhaven is too deliberately ugly to match what I have in mind.

But that's just me.

[K Nikk]

I would like to see Dick Grayson in a location - a city - because that's where his civilian activities are. The idea of him being the owner of a bar and nightclub is actually pretty great.

The city can have low- to medium- level crime (medium-level includes some medium-level supervillains), which he fights as Nigthwing (there is nothing wrong with some street-level crime-fighting), and a number of interesting characters - some superheroes and supervillains, and non-super supporting cast - that he can interact with, along with visitors from his long superhero past.

There can be occasional large-scale threats to the city, but it shouldn't be constantly on the edge of collapse, alien invasion, or destruction. I see it as a more stable place than that. This would free Dick up to have story arcs that take him anywhere in the world, taking on major supervillains with wide-ranging, dangerous plans, and assisting (or fighting against) his old acquaintances in the world-wide spy business.

So: his city as a place for street-level adventures and a solid supporting cast, but stable enough that he can leave for far-flung globe-trotting adventures. The character is well-suited to both, and I would enjoy seeing the contrast.

I would not use Blüdhaven. Starting with its name, and then its early introduction, it was set up to be "Gotham but more explicitly violent and seedy." Which keeps him too close to "a version of Batman in his version of Gotham City." The current Atlantic City vibe is a little better, but the name Blüdhaven is too deliberately ugly to match what I have in mind.

But that's just me.

I don't know what Bludhaven is supposed to translate into, but if going the route Badou suggested that all sorts of people, creatures, etc. end up there because they are shoved out of everywhere else - then the HAVEN part of the word actually fits very well! This is a haven, a refuge. Dick is a caretaker and taking personal responsibility for a haven of this kind is becoming very appealing to me. As a gateway (not officially or literally) between Earth and everywhere else, it becomes important completely divorced from it's ties to Gotham, and Dick feels like just the right person to be able to handle the kind of challenges that could be faced there. His empathy, and warmth and open-mindedness become intrinsically necessary to his role.

[WonderNight]

What I find funny is all of the the things we are complaining about were all fixed with Grayson LOL! sad.

[Frontier]

I read Technic Imperative, albeit a loooooong time ago, and thought it was just ok. Nothing really stands out in my memory. Same with the handful of Dixon era Nightwing trades I read. Just serviceable, by-the-numbers comics. Continuity was tight and characters stayed true to themselves, but they also lacked ambition and style.

I appreciate ambition and style in it's own right but I think the level of character/relationship development, build up, and continuity cohesion that we saw during the Dixon era is as important and meaningful as stuff like Morrison, Snyder, and King's "grand epics," if not moreso.

Since the 80's he's of course picked up more of a personality and depth, but I still find him one of the blandest heroes in DC's line-up. And the reason for that is also part of why I think the character lacks many stand-out stories when compared to his ridiculously high appearance count and, relevant to the OP, why he can't get his best stories in a limited location. Put simply, he has very few meaningful character flaws which are acknowledged in universe and all have them have been played out to death, both by him and by other heroes with similar flaws. I liked the gambling addiction idea because it's something that both made sense to me and would actually be new ground. As he is, Dick needs more interesting characters to bounce off of. Be it the Titans, BatFamily members, the colorful cast of Grayson or even from the recent Seeley run, Raptor. Dick works well bouncing off these characters because of his care-free and fun attitude and they in turn help make the stories they're a part of more interesting. By trapping Dick in a confined setting, he's mostly left to carry stories on his own, potentially with a limited support cast, and that's just not something his character is equipped for.

I think Dick has plenty of flaws if you look at his history from Robin onwards.

I would like to see Dick Grayson in a location - a city - because that's where his civilian activities are. The idea of him being the owner of a bar and nightclub is actually pretty great.

The city can have low- to medium- level crime (medium-level includes some medium-level supervillains), which he fights as Nigthwing (there is nothing wrong with some street-level crime-fighting), and a number of interesting characters - some superheroes and supervillains, and non-super supporting cast - that he can interact with, along with visitors from his long superhero past.

There can be occasional large-scale threats to the city, but it shouldn't be constantly on the edge of collapse, alien invasion, or destruction. I see it as a more stable place than that. This would free Dick up to have story arcs that take him anywhere in the world, taking on major supervillains with wide-ranging, dangerous plans, and assisting (or fighting against) his old acquaintances in the world-wide spy business.

So: his city as a place for street-level adventures and a solid supporting cast, but stable enough that he can leave for far-flung globe-trotting adventures. The character is well-suited to both, and I would enjoy seeing the contrast.

I would not use Blüdhaven. Starting with its name, and then its early introduction, it was set up to be "Gotham but more explicitly violent and seedy." Which keeps him too close to "a version of Batman in his version of Gotham City." The current Atlantic City vibe is a little better, but the name Blüdhaven is too deliberately ugly to match what I have in mind.

But that's just me.

This reminds me a lot of the Seeley run...

[Dzetoun]

What I find funny is all of the the things we are complaining about were all fixed with Grayson LOL! sad.

I think what worked about Grayson, among other things, was that it provided the character with a setting that was strikingly different from those of other heroes and also new in his own history. The freshness of Spyral (which, granted, had its own problems) was one of the attractions of the series.

Bludhaven in its current incarnation just doesn’t have that advantage, and I am not sure any city could (at least no ordinary Earth city, Badou’s idea is intriguing). Here’s the problem: imagine yourself a DC editor and a very talented writer approaches you with a brilliant pitch for an intriguing story arc set in Bludhaven featuring Nightwing. You think it one of the best stories about a hero and a city you’ve read in years. Why wouldn’t you tweak it just a bit (because you could, you’re the editor) make it about Batman and Gotham (because you could, it’s the Nightwing curse) and sell four times the copies and make four times the dollars (because you would, that’s just the market). Now, I am not saying editorial and artistic decisions literally work that simplistically, or that editors literally steal storylines from Bludhaven to advantage Gotham, but it’s a good shorthand for the creative disadvantage the character is in when you put him in Bludhaven or a similar environment.

[SiegePerilous02]

I mean that period obviously does add to his "iconic" status, but I don't think there's any argument to be made that more than a few of those stories elevate his character. From the 40's through the 60's he was as bland and cookie cutter as 99% of the other heroes running around and the 70's didn't do too much to change that for him.

It was a sustainable status quo with a clearly defined purpose that made a big impact in other media. It doesn't matter if some of the stories were weak, because the foundation of the setup was incredibly strong. His best stories later on were due to playing up that iconography or twisting things around in an interesting way. The transition to Nightwing was initially such a big deal because he'd been Robin, Batman's sidekick, for so long. It also leads to him being the most sensible choice to carry on Bruce's legacy if the need arises: he's the closest one to Bruce, has the most history, they'd been toying around with it here and there in Silver Age "imaginary stories," and him being so light and different than Bruce makes him the most interesting choice because he's always going to contrast with him and be a different Batman.

If the eras after NTT didn't do much for him, it's because the writing wasn't that good. Most of the time, it was serviceable but hardly groundbreaking, and I think a lot of characters from that era are as bland and cookie cutter at times as the older stories. Their "flaws" can make them pretty tedious.

I appreciate ambition and style in it's own right but I think the level of character/relationship development, build up, and continuity cohesion that we saw during the Dixon era is as important and meaningful as stuff like Morrison, Snyder, and King's "grand epics," if not moreso.

I think it's a case of "guess you had to be there." I think there is character/relationship development in the grand epics, and they have other stuff to keep our interest. Dick and Damian being the big relationship in Morrison's run, and it was done by tooling around with iconic dynamics that were established long before Nightwing. it's the original Robin being a new Batman and mentoring the radically different new Robin. Not much Dixon era stuff being referenced in it.

What I find funny is all of the the things we are complaining about were all fixed with Grayson LOL! sad.

I know, but people didn't want it because nostalgia reigns supreme.

[WhipWhirlwind]

If I was forced to keep Dick in a place like Bludhaven then I'd completely change it from the ground up. Turning it into a casino town makes it a bit better visually but it doesn't fix the core problems. That there is just nothing in Bludhaven interesting enough to keep Dick stuck there. So if Dick can't be a DCU character then I'd bring the DCU to Dick.

I'd redesign Bludhaven to be the haven for all manner of people, beings, and creatures across the DCU. Maybe though government involvement by pushing them to Bludhaven or just happenstance it became the place where odd things across the DCU congregated. So there are space aliens there, mutants, supernatural creatures, rogue people from Atlantis or random Amazonians, superhumans, normal crime bosses, and so on. All more than normal for big cities. This of course would be a mess visually but I'd have the city reflect that. So parts look very alien or futuristic, or dark and creepy. Also since this has been rooted into its history there are beings and creatures in normal jobs blended with the normal people. So there could be mutant police officers, alien running for local government, and so on. With so much in one city it would give Dick a lot to do, but also with so much in the city it might attract other bigger named characters or organizations to take notice of Bludhaven. You might get other heroes popping up to help control the vast range of villains that a city like that would produce. It isn't just Dick on his own in a city that doesn't feel like there is enough in it to occupy him.

Also with so much going on Dick could focus on what he wants. Which is to just be a hero trying to help people. I'd just have Dick set up a small private detective agency that is just a front for his hero work. Because there is so much going on in the city he'd have people and creatures with various problems coming to him for help as they might not feel comfortable going to the police or government. So he has a constant flood of cases and problems to solve and build on. Then because of the scale of the potential problems you have opportunities to have Dick use his DCU connections to help him.

This would make me more interested in Bludhaven, but the scale of this is probably too grand to do for a character like Nightwing. Not even Gotham or Metropolis are like this and there would probably be some conflict creating a city like this.

This would be fantastic, and is honestly fairly easily doable.

Bludhaven is a struggling city (if we're going by the atlantic city model), a bit of a shell of their former self.

Recently, Amazon announced it was going to launch a new headquarters, and every major city (including struggling ones like Baltimore) on the east coast put in their bid and went "pick me, pick me!" because they knew what it would mean for their city. I could see the US government or Star Labs doing a similar thing like "We're going to dump all this money and resources into the best city that commits to housing these new facilities/housing geared towards this DCU melting pot city", and Bludhaven wins the bidding.

[Barbatos666]

I think there is one thing they can do. Give him Duke's daytime Gotham gimmick.

[OBrianTallent]

I like both ideas of Dick owning a bar/club or being a private investigator. The PI angle would harken back to his days as a police officer somewhat. One of the things that needs to happen for Bludhaven to be as viable a city for his solo adventures is that a writer needs to invest in in it. When Geoff Johns took over Flash (along with Scott Kollins), one of the things they made a point to do was make the city as much a supporting character as any of the people in the story. I seem to recall they even did a map and had specific landmarks that were always the same. This much attention needs to be put into Bludhaven and could easily enough.
I like the idea of Dick using a precog to help along the way, but I think using Lilith would be more interesting than Ravager. The writers would have to work to keep from dropping her into a love interest for him or making her a deus ex machina all the time. However, I do think I like both of these ideas better than the physical trainer idea which is limiting while also adding some drama, it gives him the Clark Kent/Superman problem of having to be somewhere and having to fulfill a secret identity role as well.

[WonderNight]

yeah I think thats one of dicks biggest problems is that they dont invest in dicks personal life beyond gotham much. I remember they powergirl solo did good at showing karen living her day to day as much as her being powergirl. I think dick needs that also.

P.S I want me a Spyral nightclub darn it .

[CuteClops]

I love the different phases of Dick Grayson. What I miss is the interaction between him and his father (Bruce) and his brothers. I miss the family's side. I would be happy to see the Wayne family, besides the Batman family. Maybe some title for the Wayne/Bat family.
I want to see Dick, Bruce, Alfred, Tim, Jason, Barbara, Stephanie and Damian... together, like a family.

[OBrianTallent]

I love the different phases of Dick Grayson. What I miss is the interaction between him and his father (Bruce) and his brothers. I miss the family's side. I would be happy to see the Wayne family, besides the Batman family. Maybe some title for the Wayne/Bat family.
I want to see Dick, Bruce, Alfred, Tim, Jason, Barbara, Stephanie and Damian... together, like a family.

I agree here as well. One of the things I loved pre flashpoint was the interactions Dick would have with Tim. I loved when they would appear in each other's books. If they do away with the team aspect of Detective, I would like for it to return to the Batfamily type of book showcasing all of them or small groups of them interacting with each other. (On a similar but side note, I really miss Barbara being part of that family.)