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  1. #1156
    Fantastic Member BrianWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The Wonder Woman IP has been ignoring the "true" (for whatever thats worth) personalities of the Greek gods from the source since Marston.

    Is the Female (Good) vs. Male (Bad) narrative for the Gods too simplistic? Yeah probably. But that's just being true to Marston, who presented Aphrodite and Athena as pure forces of goodness while depicting Mars, Hercules and Pluto as villainous buffoons. It just comes with the territory at this point. Perez even continued it somewhat by bringing in all the goddesses as the Amazon patrons, not just Aphrodite and Athena.

    Still hoping Hermes comes around to joining the ladies though.
    See, I definitely agree that the Amazons and Wonder Woman herself should be created by the goddesses. Their power sources should be feminine, they should even hold their matron goddesses in higher honor than the male gods. And that's not even contradictory with genuine Hellenic traditions; many cities and cultures of Greece had their own favored gods that they gave special worship to and that's just how it worked. And really, this whole "Tribe of [Goddess]" notion is just fun cool world-building in general.

    But on the other hand, when it comes to the depiction of the overall Olympian pantheon itself, it seems a bit overkill for the Amazons to be cut off from half that entire worship. All of the gods, together, comprise the breadths and scopes of the ancient Greek cultures. Will the Historia Amazons not have smithing or theater? Will they not have trade or poetry? It sounds trite I'm sure, but pantheonic worship really works best as a harmonious whole, or else you're basically missing half a religion, half a society. We can already see bits and pieces here of how De Connick has had to kind of......mm, "compromise" on this with her Amazons by slotting goddesses into the roles that, in actuality, probably would have made a bit more sense with the gods. Io, for instance, would probably feel way more connected to Hephaestus than Hestia who...really doesn't have a thing to do with forges or metals and whatnot.

    Perez got this, and had his Amazons worship Poseidon and Apollo etc even if they weren't their true patrons, and the best part of his Amazons were how they fit together as a semi-realistic society with poets and craftswomen along with the warriors. Though, to be clear, Perez also very much ascribed to the "women and men should just get together and get along, sure some men suck but forgiveness and unity is better than being mad!" mindset which is...certainly not what this series looks to be saying, at least for now.

    I get that there needs to be conflict and resentment for this story to work and that the boy gods have thereby been relegated to the bad guys' side for that to happen. Still, what I would like to happen with Historia is for the male gods to eventually, slowly but surely, be drawn over to the Amazons' side as well, and so for the Amazons to eventually, slowly but surely, end up as a more complete society. But...considering how the story seems to be about how they lost a war against the male gods, I'd probably be setting myself up for disappointment if I hoped for that too hard
    Last edited by BrianWilly; 12-01-2021 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #1157
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Overall even the source material is varies. So it's not like Wonder Woman being different from the source isn't a bad thing.There is no one main version

  3. #1158
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWilly View Post

    But on the other hand, when it comes to the depiction of the overall Olympian pantheon itself, it seems a bit overkill for the Amazons to be cut off from half that entire worship. All of the gods, together, comprise the breadths and scopes of the ancient Greek cultures. Will the Historia Amazons not have smithing or theater? Will they not have trade or poetry? It sounds trite I'm sure, but pantheonic worship really works best as a harmonious whole, or else you're basically missing half a religion, half a society.
    Amazons arenít Greek and you donít need to worship the male gods to take part in those activities. Consider how in the real world the Romans shifted the responsibilities of the gods to suit their own needs. Mars was their patron so they elevated him in importance compared to how the Greeks treated Ares. Amazons simply gave the accolades owed of various tasks that had been the domain of the male gods to their patron goddesses. Look KSD is making the male gods the villains of this story, thatís pretty clear from Day 1. This wonít be a story where the Amazons learn not all men (or gods) are bad, if anything I expect to see their villainous traits played up given who is writing this and what the pitch is.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  4. #1159
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Iím unsure of a lot of the big creative choices being made here, but Phil Jimenez absolutely destroyed on the art and the colors were incredible.

  5. #1160
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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  6. #1161
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Amazons aren’t Greek and you don’t need to worship the male gods to take part in those activities. Consider how in the real world the Romans shifted the responsibilities of the gods to suit their own needs. Mars was their patron so they elevated him in importance compared to how the Greeks treated Ares. Amazons simply gave the accolades owed of various tasks that had been the domain of the male gods to their patron goddesses. Look KSD is making the male gods the villains of this story, that’s pretty clear from Day 1. This won’t be a story where the Amazons learn not all men (or gods) are bad, if anything I expect to see their villainous traits played up given who is writing this and what the pitch is.
    If a tribe of warrior women, who fought for equality, eventually abandon that fight and live on as island for thousands of years...well, it is not because a series of good things happen to them during their time in the outside world.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 12-02-2021 at 06:56 AM.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  7. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Amazons aren’t Greek and you don’t need to worship the male gods to take part in those activities. Consider how in the real world the Romans shifted the responsibilities of the gods to suit their own needs. Mars was their patron so they elevated him in importance compared to how the Greeks treated Ares. Amazons simply gave the accolades owed of various tasks that had been the domain of the male gods to their patron goddesses. Look KSD is making the male gods the villains of this story, that’s pretty clear from Day 1. This won’t be a story where the Amazons learn not all men (or gods) are bad, if anything I expect to see their villainous traits played up given who is writing this and what the pitch is.
    Amazons are Greek because they are figures in Greek mythology and have Greek names. Many cultures and mythologies have female warrior tribes. I remember there was a group of real-life warrior women that existed in Africa until the late 19 century. (They were defeated by the French).
    Last edited by Veni; 12-02-2021 at 06:59 AM.

  8. #1163
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    The cherry on top for me is how mad the misogynists and racists are that this book 1. exists and 2. is so damn amazing.

    Author of the Instant New York Times bestselling novel, The Prophets, from G.P. Putnman's Sons.

  9. #1164
    Mighty Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    The cherry on top for me is how mad the misogynists and racists are that this book 1. exists and 2. is so damn amazing.

    Okay! I’m reading tweets and thinking to myself, “DeConnick, PJ—job well done.”
    I only support clay origins.

    ďAmazons do know how to partyĒóDiana, Princess of Themyscira

  10. #1165
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    The cherry on top for me is how mad the misogynists and racists are that this book 1. exists and 2. is so damn amazing.

    I've seen some ones also on sites where I post reviews.

    They really got upset with Aphrodite, lol.

  11. #1166
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm sure as the story continues, we will see it isn't as simple as "men bad, women evil". Perez's run, which this story is taking cues from, wasn't that simplistic.
    I'm sure the overall story will show some more moral nuance when it comes to mortals and the Amazons, but as far as the Gods go I think what we're seeing is most likely what we're going to get. Barring maybe Hermes coming around to side with the goddesses and Ares getting some more layers (but still evil). The Perez run was a little kinder, but it still had Artemis dismissing Apollo as a coward when he put himself to sleep for the journey to the underworld. And while Heracles and Zeus came around and learned some lessons, I don't think "the entitled rapists turn over a new leaf and the women they wronged go back to loving them" stuff be something DeConnick would go for nor would it fly with today's audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    The cherry on top for me is how mad the misogynists and racists are that this book 1. exists and 2. is so damn amazing.
    These are the reactions a WW project should get. It means it's doing its job.

    Imagine being mad that infamous serial adulterer/spousal abuser/rapist Zeus isn't being depicted in a flattering light in 2021.

  12. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm sure the overall story will show some more moral nuance when it comes to mortals and the Amazons, but as far as the Gods go I think what we're seeing is most likely what we're going to get. Barring maybe Hermes coming around to side with the goddesses and Ares getting some more layers (but still evil). The Perez run was a little kinder, but it still had Artemis dismissing Apollo as a coward when he put himself to sleep for the journey to the underworld. And while Heracles and Zeus came around and learned some lessons, I don't think "the entitled rapists turn over a new leaf and the women they wronged go back to loving them" stuff be something DeConnick would go for nor would it fly with today's audience.
    Oh, I don't think that part will be adapted. I imagine Zeus would remain in an antagonistic role but maybe Hermes and some of the other male gods (I'm thinking Hephaestus and Hades) turn on Zeus and show some sympathetic male figures among the mortals.

  13. #1168
    Incredible Member Sebastianne's Avatar
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    I will never understand that fascination that many of you have for Hermes, I always preferred that he not participate in the creation of Diana.
    It doesn't bother me that he's an ally, but it wouldn't bother me if he's an enemy or one of the bunch.
    Having said this, in History I felt that Zeus belittled Hermes, as if saying that he does not know what role he plays. That may be an indication that at some point Hermes will join the goddesses.

  14. #1169
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    I think the only time DeConnickís written WW-related was her guest appearance in Aquaman. Iíve not read the full issue but the scans Iíve seen shares seem reasonably in-character for how the Amazons should be described when theyíre brought up.

    Granted this an entirely separate project and is a ground up re-do whereas Aquaman was an in-continuity mainline book.


  15. #1170
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Oh, I don't think that part will be adapted. I imagine Zeus would remain in an antagonistic role but maybe Hermes and some of the other male gods (I'm thinking Hephaestus and Hades) turn on Zeus and show some sympathetic male figures among the mortals.
    Agreed that it probably won't be black and white with mortals. Already in this issue, the George guy seemed okay enough beyond just going through the motions of what society expected at that point.

    Hades might be a neutral party, which would be pretty true to him. He seemed to let Demeter pass with no issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianne View Post
    I will never understand that fascination that many of you have for Hermes, I always preferred that he not participate in the creation of Diana.
    It doesn't bother me that he's an ally, but it wouldn't bother me if he's an enemy or one of the bunch.
    Having said this, in History I felt that Zeus belittled Hermes, as if saying that he does not know what role he plays. That may be an indication that at some point Hermes will join the goddesses.
    I wouldn't say that there is any deep fascination with him, just that fans like him after he's been a pretty semi-consistent ally to Diana in stuff like Perez, Rucka and Azzarello. Plus in the actual myths, Hermes always comes across as one of the more consistently likeable Gods, so if he's an enemy in this it comes across as him being less deserving than some of the others. Even the otherwise chill Hephaestus has a version of a myth where he attempts to sexually assault Athena.

    There might be something along those lines with Hermes, but I've never heard it as of now.

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