Wonder Woman Historia: The Amazons and Wonder Woman: Diana's Daughter Announced

[Korath]

Thank you for the links and for the post in general!
!!
I think it's...interesting that some people can accept all the incredible, fantastical, mind-blowing stuff you see in Wonder Woman comics, but draw the line at depicting MYTHOLOGICAL DEITIES ---you know, those fictional cosmic beings that never existed and that a comic book is ADAPTING---with skin that is not white or features that don't adhere to the eurocentric beauty standard. And let's not sugarcoat it...the gods in WW comics are always drawn as white.
In any case, if I were drawing a WW book, and since these "Greek" gods are simply comic-bookized adaptations, I would draw them with various features and skin tones. Gaea, for example, I would definitely draw as a divinely dark-skinned black woman...the literal mother Earth through which Nubia and Diana get their strength.
#%@k Zeus.
Attachment 111580
Picture credit: Trisher Chemjor

You do realize that even today there are peoples who worship those divinities, yes ? Who are you to say that aren't real ?

I'm from Southern Europe and those videos you just posted aren't stating facts. Many people have called Vice News and Vox about trying to revise history to suit their agenda. Yes, the statues were painted but the people were white. I mean look at the facial features.
I agree that the Mediterranean isn't just Europe. The Mediterranean is just a geographical term. It is true that Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and later the East Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire/ Byzantium), which is basically a Greek Empire) expanded to become one of the largest empires in the ancient world through conquest, cultural, and linguistic assimilation. The Greeks and Romans are Europeans, therefore they are Caucasians aka white. However, the populations of the kingdoms/empires which they conquered in the Middle East and North Africa weren't. Yes, some Greeks had olive skin but olive skin is classified as white. Ancient Egypt, on the other hand, was a melting pot of cultures. During the course of its history, Egypt was invaded or conquered by a number of foreign powers, including the Hyksos, the Libyans, the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Achaemenid Persians, and the Macedonians under the command of Alexander the Great. The Greek Ptolemaic Kingdom, formed in the aftermath of Alexander's death, ruled Egypt until 30 BC, when, under Cleopatra, it fell to the Roman Empire and became a Roman province. It makes sense for Ancient Egypt, but not for Ancient Rome and Greece because they were never conquered by non-European empires. The Persians tried several times to conquer Greece but failed. Therefore I prefer that the Greek Gods and Goddesses be portrayed as Europeans aka white.

True, but I'd say there is clear differences between a Greek or Roman and a Northern/Central European person. "Races" are widely diverse skin tones, facial features and the likes baked into one size fit-all shape for purpose which were always dubious at best historically, more often than not just racist. There is no reasons for the Greek Gods to look like WASP when they probably should look South-Eastern European / Near-Eastern.

Also, if I remember right what I read a few years ago, while Egypt was certainly a melting pot, genetic evidence shows that the african genotypes are more numerous today than they were in ancient times, mean that in Antiquity, they were closer to the rest of North Africa and the Middle East in term of population. Also, let's not oversell the number of conquerors who settled there over the thousands of years of the Egyptian's Kingdoms. If they are anything like the Great Migration in Western Europe, they were probably mostly small (relatively speaking) foreing forces settling and forming a rule classe distinct from the mass of the peoples.

Also, at that time, it was a lot easier to do that without risking a revolt since polytheism allows far more flexibility in accepting new gods. Hence why when the Romans conquered the Gauls, they easily turned the gaulish gods into aspects of their own divinities.

[John Venus]

I don't mind there being non white Gods. They are not bound by human migration and evolution. They shouldn't look too human either. I like to think the Gods took on different forms during different eras. Like the early human, Neanderthal's saw them resembling one of their own and the later humans saw them resembling themselves.

Something like Gaiman's Sandman would work in which the characters appearance is dependent on who sees. We see Morpheus as Gaiman sees him, pale skin, dark hair but the Martian Manhunter sees Morpheus as a Martian Gods and one of Morpheus love interests saw him as a black man because she was from an African tribe. Even Ostrander's Spectre had him take on the appearance of whichever God the person who saw him worshipped (I don't remember how it applied to atheists though).

[HestiasHearth]

I still find it hilarious that some Wonder Woman fans can accept all kinds of fantastical tales and tons of tweaks and modifications to the WW mythos...but Zeus forbid that deities that were loosely adapted from ancient made-up stories about fictional beings are depicted as non-white.
That's just crossing the line. LOL
And to be fair, it's not just some WW fans. This thing is highly pervasive in comic book fandom ("The Fantastic Four are superpowered cosmic explorers with fantastical abilities who have fought planet eating giants, mole people, and insectoid intergalactic conquerors and I can believe all that...but hell no to Jessica Alba or Michael B Jordan to be part of the family. That is NOT realistic!!" LOL)
Also, some WW fans want fantasy and escapism and the outrageously out-there whimsy and irreality of Marston-era WW...EXCEPT when it comes to the Greek made-up deities being non-white. There you have to be "realistic" because of course made up beings HAVE to be white. They just HAVE to be white. Even if not all the people who worship them look like that. Even when the AMAZONS are not Greek themselves.
White supremacy is funny like that.

I don't mind there being non white Gods. They are not bound by human migration and evolution. They shouldn't look too human either. I like to think the Gods took on different forms during different eras. Like the early human, Neanderthal's saw them resembling one of their own and the later humans saw them resembling themselves.

Something like Gaiman's Sandman would work in which the characters appearance is dependent on who sees. We see Morpheus as Gaiman sees him, pale skin, dark hair but the Martian Manhunter sees Morpheus as a Martian Gods and one of Morpheus love interests saw him as a black man because she was from an African tribe. Even Ostrander's Spectre had him take on the appearance of whichever God the person who saw him worshipped (I don't remember how it applied to atheists though).

I love that!

At the end of the day, as long as the stories entertain me and thrill me, I don't care/mind in the least if the loosely adapted "GreeK" gods in Wonder Woman look Asian or black or Hispanic. I actually hope they start drawing them like that. That would be awesome (but bad for lots of fanboys out there LOL)

[Alpha]

Gaea, for example, I would definitely draw as a divinely dark-skinned black woman...the literal mother Earth through which Nubia and Diana get their strength.
#%@k Zeus.
Attachment 111580
Picture credit: Trisher Chemjor

That's a pretty good model for Gaia. I love it.

[marhawkman]

Also, some WW fans want fantasy and escapism and the outrageously out-there whimsy and irreality of Marston-era WW...EXCEPT when it comes to the Greek made-up deities being non-white. There you have to be "realistic" because of course made up beings HAVE to be white. They just HAVE to be white. Even if not all the people who worship them look like that. Even when the AMAZONS are not Greek themselves.
White supremacy is funny like that.

"supremacy"? no... it's about respecting the source material. Would you draw Quetzalcoatl or Raiden to look like a black guy just because you feel like it?

Also the idea the Amazons aren't Greek is a bit off. the idea of Amazons comes from stories told by the Greeks. How did the Greeks describe them?

[Sebastianne]

I still find it hilarious that some Wonder Woman fans can accept all kinds of fantastical tales and tons of tweaks and modifications to the WW mythos...but Zeus forbid that deities that were loosely adapted from ancient made-up stories about fictional beings are depicted as non-white.
That's just crossing the line. LOL
And to be fair, it's not just some WW fans. This thing is highly pervasive in comic book fandom ("The Fantastic Four are superpowered cosmic explorers with fantastical abilities who have fought planet eating giants, mole people, and insectoid intergalactic conquerors and I can believe all that...but hell no to Jessica Alba or Michael B Jordan to be part of the family. That is NOT realistic!!" LOL)
Also, some WW fans want fantasy and escapism and the outrageously out-there whimsy and irreality of Marston-era WW...EXCEPT when it comes to the Greek made-up deities being non-white. There you have to be "realistic" because of course made up beings HAVE to be white. They just HAVE to be white. Even if not all the people who worship them look like that. Even when the AMAZONS are not Greek themselves.
White supremacy is funny like that.



I love that!

At the end of the day, as long as the stories entertain me and thrill me, I don't care/mind in the least if the loosely adapted "GreeK" gods in Wonder Woman look Asian or black or Hispanic. I actually hope they start drawing them like that. That would be awesome (but bad for lots of fanboys out there LOL)

Even knowing that several of the "Greek" gods originated from, were taken from or even brought into their culture from other places and other cultures with little relation to the so-called white race.

[SiegePerilous02]

"supremacy"? no... it's about respecting the source material. Would you draw Quetzalcoatl or Raiden to look like a black guy just because you feel like it?

Also the idea the Amazons aren't Greek is a bit off. the idea of Amazons comes from stories told by the Greeks. How did the Greeks describe them?

They were told in legends by the Greeks to fulfill the role of some fearsome "other," they were never part of Greek society within the myths. They are speculated to be based upon the warrior women in Scythian society, and the Scythians were nomads who were believed to be of Iranian origin. So logically, we shouldn't automatically assume they are Greek.

Even knowing that several of the "Greek" gods originated from, were taken from or even brought into their culture from other places and other cultures with little relation to the so-called white race.

Yes, Aphrodite in particular was speculated to be influenced by cults dedicated to Astarte, Ishtar and Innana.

[HestiasHearth]

That's a pretty good model for Gaia. I love it.

I know, right? She looks so amazing and soooo like Gaea. In fact, this is the official model for my headcanon Gaea in the Wonder Woman comic book and animated TV series that lives rent-free in my head and heart ❤ . LOL And all the deities that William Moulton Marston loosely adapted from ancient, endlessly evolving Greek stories are also, in my headcanon, a diverse gamut of skintones, hair textures and ethnic backgrounds. To better fit a "realistic" fantasy world in which the also loosely-adapted amazons have purple healing rays, mental radios, and invisible aircrafts. You know, just like the "real" amazons did. This is one of the great elements of fantasy narratives: you can come up with the most awesomely fantastical concepts and none of them is "wrong" or "right." As long as they are full of thrilling, pulse-pounding escapist entertainment, I'm good.

[I'm a Fish]

Even knowing that several of the "Greek" gods originated from, were taken from or even brought into their culture from other places and other cultures with little relation to the so-called white race.

Indeed. Humans have been taking aspects from other cultures and molding them to better fit their society for millennia, and this extends to deities.

-

Whether it is right for Americans to take deities from an ancient culture whose religion is largely considered to have died out and mold it to better fit their society, I don’t know. But portraying Eris as a purple skinned woman with a buzz cut, cocktail dress and heels isn’t any more accurate to her classical depiction than physically portraying her as a woman of another race.

Also, these are comic depictions and not historical documentaries, several elements of Greek mythology have already been drastically warped to fit DC mythos. The Greek gods are shapeshifters, and Wonder Woman largely takes place in America. Perhaps when they visit, they take forms mirroring the culture of the surrounding area?

[Veni]

"True, but I'd say there is clear differences between a Greek or Roman and a Northern/Central European person. "Races" are widely diverse skin tones, facial features and the likes baked into one size fit-all shape for purpose which were always dubious at best historically, more often than not just racist. There is no reasons for the Greek Gods to look like WASP when they probably should look South-Eastern European / Near-Eastern.

Also, if I remember right what I read a few years ago, while Egypt was certainly a melting pot, genetic evidence shows that the african genotypes are more numerous today than they were in ancient times, mean that in Antiquity, they were closer to the rest of North Africa and the Middle East in term of population. Also, let's not oversell the number of conquerors who settled there over the thousands of years of the Egyptian's Kingdoms. If they are anything like the Great Migration in Western Europe, they were probably mostly small (relatively speaking) foreing forces settling and forming a rule classe distinct from the mass of the peoples.

Also, at that time, it was a lot easier to do that without risking a revolt since polytheism allows far more flexibility in accepting new gods. Hence why when the Romans conquered the Gauls, they easily turned the gaulish gods into aspects of their own divinities."


Well as I Southern European ( I'm from the Balkans) I can definitely tell you that I have fair skin. There are lots of people here who have fair skin. Southern Europeans don't have a Near-Eastern look.

[marhawkman]

They were told in legends by the Greeks to fulfill the role of some fearsome "other," they were never part of Greek society within the myths. They are speculated to be based upon the warrior women in Scythian society, and the Scythians were nomads who were believed to be of Iranian origin. So logically, we shouldn't automatically assume they are Greek.

Iranian? The origin of the Scythians is hotly debated and... well there's significant evidence that it was actually several cultures not a single culture. At any rate we're(presumably) talking about the group mentioned by Herodotus. Those Scythians lived in the Black Sea and Caspian Sea area north of modern day Turkey, not the Middle East. Many people think they're descended from the Yamnaya people who are described as:

People of the Yamnaya culture are believed to have had mostly brown eye colour with some variation, light to intermediate skin, and mainly brown hair, possibly with some individuals carrying a mutation to the KITLG gene associated with blond hair.[40][41] A study in 2015 found that Yamnaya had the highest ever calculated genetic selection for height of any of the ancient populations tested.

So yeah, you mentioned the Scythian connection as part of discussing what Amazons "should" look like... well... the area where they lived is where Russia and the Ukraine are located today. And yeah that description above is much like what the modern-day people of those regions look like.

[SonOfBaldwin]

I still find it hilarious that some Wonder Woman fans can accept all kinds of fantastical tales and tons of tweaks and modifications to the WW mythos...but Zeus forbid that deities that were loosely adapted from ancient made-up stories about fictional beings are depicted as non-white.


That's just crossing the line. LOL

And to be fair, it's not just some WW fans. This thing is highly pervasive in comic book fandom ("The Fantastic Four are superpowered cosmic explorers with fantastical abilities who have fought planet eating giants, mole people, and insectoid intergalactic conquerors and I can believe all that...but hell no to Jessica Alba or Michael B Jordan to be part of the family. That is NOT realistic!!" LOL)

Also, some WW fans want fantasy and escapism and the outrageously out-there whimsy and irreality of Marston-era WW...EXCEPT when it comes to the Greek made-up deities being non-white. There you have to be "realistic" because of course made up beings HAVE to be white. They just HAVE to be white. Even if not all the people who worship them look like that. Even when the AMAZONS are not Greek themselves. White supremacy is funny like that.

Chile, you said everything I was thinking.

[marhawkman]

"True, but I'd say there is clear differences between a Greek or Roman and a Northern/Central European person. "Races" are widely diverse skin tones, facial features and the likes baked into one size fit-all shape for purpose which were always dubious at best historically, more often than not just racist. There is no reasons for the Greek Gods to look like WASP when they probably should look South-Eastern European / Near-Eastern.

Also, if I remember right what I read a few years ago, while Egypt was certainly a melting pot, genetic evidence shows that the african genotypes are more numerous today than they were in ancient times, mean that in Antiquity, they were closer to the rest of North Africa and the Middle East in term of population. Also, let's not oversell the number of conquerors who settled there over the thousands of years of the Egyptian's Kingdoms. If they are anything like the Great Migration in Western Europe, they were probably mostly small (relatively speaking) foreing forces settling and forming a rule classe distinct from the mass of the peoples.

Also, at that time, it was a lot easier to do that without risking a revolt since polytheism allows far more flexibility in accepting new gods. Hence why when the Romans conquered the Gauls, they easily turned the gaulish gods into aspects of their own divinities."

Indeed, the Scythian gods are all described by Herodotus using analogies for Greek gods. Not that they're actually the SAME, but he was describing them to a Greek audience. Thing is... the most important gods in the Scythian pantheon... is their analog of Ares... we don't know the Scythian name, but every major settlement the Scythians lived in had a shrine to him.

Oh hey.... yeah... Ares... that guy. ehehe. It's like an odd opposite tot he way amazons are in DC. The real-world analog had the opposite personality. Then again... in-universe it's said that the Amazons used to be very different than they are now, and it's suggested that maybe the "war-like" Bana-Migdall are actually the way that Hippolyta's group used to act. Oh and yeah... Hippolyta, demi-goddess daughter of Ares.... yes, THAT Ares. The Greek god, not the Scythian equivalent.

[SiegePerilous02]

Iranian? The origin of the Scythians is hotly debated and... well there's significant evidence that it was actually several cultures not a single culture. At any rate we're(presumably) talking about the group mentioned by Herodotus. Those Scythians lived in the Black Sea and Caspian Sea area north of modern day Turkey, not the Middle East. Many people think they're descended from the Yamnaya people who are described as:
So yeah, you mentioned the Scythian connection as part of discussing what Amazons "should" look like... well... the area where they lived is where Russia and the Ukraine are located today. And yeah that description above is much like what the modern-day people of those regions look like.

Either way you slice it, in either Greek myths themselves or in WW, they are not Greek.

And the Amazons were never meant to actually be the Scythians I believe, just inspired by the legends of their women being warriors. And it's kind of moot because the Amazons in WW are created by the goddesses in much the same way Prometheus created the human race in Greek myth. And if he created all mankind, he didn't just create the Greeks. Considering their origins within the books, there is no reason for the Amazons to be uniform in appearance, also when we factor in all the liberties this franchise already takes with the myths it's kind of too late to suddenly start caring about prioritizing accuracy.

[marhawkman]

Either way you slice it, in either Greek myths themselves or in WW, they are not Greek.

And the Amazons were never meant to actually be the Scythians I believe, just inspired by the legends of their women being warriors. And it's kind of moot because the Amazons in WW are created by the goddesses in much the same way Prometheus created the human race in Greek myth. And if he created all mankind, he didn't just create the Greeks.

DC doesn't seem to use that idea. Instead DC uses the idea that the Greek gods are well Greek, and the other cultures have different gods specific to their culture... such as how Hawaiians have Pele.

Just one of many, many examples.....