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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joao View Post
    Excited about both. Finally a big female writer! And Rucka works better with GNs, there are not long spades of time to keep us waiting the pay off.

    BUT.

    I'm concerned about both of these NOT featuring Diana herself as a main character. Maybe Historia vol. 2 and 3., I hope. But we need to tell stories about Diana. Especially in elseworld stories, where she is usually the girlfriend (Red Son, Injustice...).

    There are so many blank spaces to fill when talking about her mythos. But, well, this is a great start.



    More like movie suit to me.
    These two suit are so similar and thats why I dont like it
    Not a fan of this movie affected way
    Batman wouldnt have this issue and superman even get his red trunks back
    I dont know why dc think ww should have a suit more like the movie one

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I really enjoyed Jimenez's run and all the characters and character beats and plots he threw at us. His run had a real sense of fun with all the glory and richness the DCU has to offer. I'd welcome him back on writing and art, but I think I'd prefer it after Doomsday Clock and however that's going to affect the multiverse and Diana and the Amazons's history. (And Donna and Cassie's for that matter.)

    Maybe it'd provide a fresher start and more level playing ground after we understand the machinations of Doctor Manhattan.
    Phil did a great job before. I enjoy his run too.
    And I also agree that phil should come back to main isseue AFTER dclock
    As we all know rebirth is nothing than a reboot
    I hope phil could continue his work not to remake some new stuff
    Only if dclock could really bring back the pre-fp time back……

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkgkindaichi View Post
    These two suit are so similar and thats why I dont like it
    Not a fan of this movie affected way
    Batman wouldnt have this issue and superman even get his red trunks back
    I dont know why dc think ww should have a suit more like the movie one
    Because it looks better than her wearing a glorified one-piece swimsuit. It's the best costume that she's had in ages.

  4. #64
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Yeah, I can understand that, but Azzarello came after a reboot. He had a clean slate to work with. It isn't the case with Rucka, and that's the problem. I find, as someone who aspire to bebome a novelist/writer, that what he did in Rebirth what the most disrespectful thing a writer could do. If he hated New 52 so much, he should have thrown his weight at D.C. to ask for a clean reboot for WW, like they did for Superman. WIth Gods, Magic, the Fourth World and shit, it wouldn't have been so difficut to justify it.
    The problem with Azz is that DC ALWAYS treats Diana like this. They tell their writers to ignore everything, and don't expect any research. So I don't care that Azz came during a reboot: what he did was incredibly disrespectful to the history of Diana, and I don't find it that artistically strong to justify that kind of nastiness towards what's gone before. So because I hate it so much, I'm perfectly fine with Rucka getting rid of it in whatever way he could. Additionally, he didn't just say "It never happened," he just provided plausible explanations for how it could have happened like it did in the n52 without it actually destroying the previous continuity material. I know I'm biased, because I am completely on board with disrespecting Amazon rapist murderer mean-girls and Zeus's Baby Girl origin, but I thought it actually gave the Azz stuff room to exist while providing a way forward to those who want the Perez style mythology more respected.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    I believe he did vocalise some dislike for pairing Superman with Wonder Woman.
    In interviews, I always thought he was very politic in trying to say "I really hate everything that's been done with Diana after Simone left" but not actually saying it.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    In interviews, I always thought he was very politic in trying to say "I really hate everything that's been done with Diana after Simone left" but not actually saying it.
    Gail Simone managed to breathe life into Etta Candy too bad she couldn't do the same for Steve because he was sixty years old and younger Steve is far easier to work with. Though if the stories were more politically driven Steve's role as the liaison to the Amazons would have meaning. Not saying what that he hates the idea of pairing Wonder Woman with Superman?
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  6. #66
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Gail Simone managed to breathe life into Etta Candy too bad she couldn't do the same for Steve because he was sixty years old and younger Steve is far easier to work with. Though if the stories were more politically driven Steve's role as the liaison to the Amazons would have meaning. Not saying what that he hates the idea of pairing Wonder Woman with Superman?
    Well, Simone tried to make Diana/Nemesis a thing... And that's basically the same dynamic that Rucka went with for Diana/Steve.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The problem with Azz is that DC ALWAYS treats Diana like this. They tell their writers to ignore everything, and don't expect any research. So I don't care that Azz came during a reboot: what he did was incredibly disrespectful to the history of Diana, and I don't find it that artistically strong to justify that kind of nastiness towards what's gone before. So because I hate it so much, I'm perfectly fine with Rucka getting rid of it in whatever way he could. Additionally, he didn't just say "It never happened," he just provided plausible explanations for how it could have happened like it did in the n52 without it actually destroying the previous continuity material. I know I'm biased, because I am completely on board with disrespecting Amazon rapist murderer mean-girls and Zeus's Baby Girl origin, but I thought it actually gave the Azz stuff room to exist while providing a way forward to those who want the Perez style mythology more respected.
    By that logic, Azzarello didn't retcon Diana's original origin, he simply "enhanced" it (his words, not mine), since Diana truly believed that she was born from clay prior to his run. But that's not how people felt about it, it still isn't how people feel about it. And yet, Greg Rucka's abomination of a second run get praised to the high heavens, while Azzarello's get trashed because he had the gal (eh) to depict a segregationist society in a bad light. It really sicken me. I prefer vastly his Amazons, has flawed as they may be, to Rucka's hollow and weak characters.

  8. #68
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    By that logic, Azzarello didn't retcon Diana's original origin, he simply "enhanced" it (his words, not mine), since Diana truly believed that she was born from clay prior to his run. But that's not how people felt about it, it still isn't how people feel about it. And yet, Greg Rucka's abomination of a second run get praised to the high heavens, while Azzarello's get trashed because he had the gal (eh) to depict a segregationist society in a bad light. It really sicken me. I prefer vastly his Amazons, has flawed as they may be, to Rucka's hollow and weak characters.
    1) What Azz had the gall to do was not make the Amazon's flawed. Simone did that. What he did was make them monstrous and deeply unlikeable. Flawed would be "A small group of Amazons found childlessness deeply difficult to bear so they developed mental illnesses and a secret anti-child society called the Circle". Azz did "Amazons raped and murdered sailors and then murdered their male children, and then bullied young Diana mercilessly."

    2) It's facile to say "what's wrong with Azz's Wonder Woman is that he just added a lot of dudes." But there's a core element of truth to that - Azzarello has little to say about women, the society of women, womanhood, femininity - except possibly that "women who live together for a long time become evil" - which...doesn't seem very appropriate for a Wonder Woman story. He's telling a deconstructionist fantasty/horror adventure story which happens to feature women. I don't think that adds significantly to Wonder Woman's mythology or thematic resonance.

    3) I strongly disagree with any assertion that Rucka's second run is an abomination. You may dislike what it does, but the art and writing are both very high quality. Azz, on the other hand, is deeply debateable in terms of quality, and I think most Wonder Woman fans who didn't start with Azz find it pretty low quality.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    I'm reading Rebirth WW right now, just to be sure that my rejection wasn't just some reaction on the fly, and the only good thing is the art. the writing his atrocious, the characters either ridiculous or hardly worth respect (I still hate Diana in a mental institution and how he basically wrote that she was just a nympho). There is nothing of worth in early rebirth, that's something I feel strongly and won't ever change my mind. And his Amazons never raped men (when they never did, they offered themselves to them, it's a whole other thing -before killing them, sure, but that's what eternal life in a society hating Man's World and how corrupt it is may produce) during Azz's run or that their Sons were somehow better (when nothing in the run prove it). I know that realism and logic are somehow frowned upon by peoples, especially in comics, but I like it far more than Rebirth's depiction of the real Amazons.

  10. #70
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    What would be flaws that the amazons should have ? I think due to the fact we have seen many amazons aren’t just be warriors much like the 2009 animated movie not all want to warriors. Some have a fear of leaving the island not course. Some simple flaws that are just for some amazons personal. Not just their warrior culture. You can have the sex pirates work if it’s not all the amazons and none of the amazons knew about it. The reason simply being they want to make men stuffer. For taking away their familes. But it would make it a weird thing thing if yes they want to lake men stuff but if they give birth to a son that son is treated like any other child. The reason being is the amazons were living in gender equality society and outsiders came in and killed their familes. Their sons, husbands and others. They are trying to claim what they have lost. They don’t hate their sons but hate any men who is outsiders to them

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm reading Rebirth WW right now, just to be sure that my rejection wasn't just some reaction on the fly, and the only good thing is the art. the writing his atrocious, the characters either ridiculous or hardly worth respect (I still hate Diana in a mental institution and how he basically wrote that she was just a nympho). There is nothing of worth in early rebirth, that's something I feel strongly and won't ever change my mind. And his Amazons never raped men (when they never did, they offered themselves to them, it's a whole other thing -before killing them, sure, but that's what eternal life in a society hating Man's World and how corrupt it is may produce) during Azz's run or that their Sons were somehow better (when nothing in the run prove it). I know that realism and logic are somehow frowned upon by peoples, especially in comics, but I like it far more than Rebirth's depiction of the real Amazons.
    1) Diana is just a nympho in Rucka's run? In what way do you see that? She is shown having sex with Steve one time. Or are you talking about her affairs on Themiscyra? If the latter...really? Her life is shown to be very full and rich, and not just about her love affairs. Plus, that was likely just gossip from a jealous Io, since Diana only talks about one woman when she leaves as her lover.

    2) If you really think Year One is worthless on a writing level, all I can say is I believe you're wrong. You say you won't change your mind, but...it's a really lovely work, with incredible art, and fantastic character moments that really crystallizes who Diana is and what she can be.

    3) We can argue about whether the Amazons seducing the sailors constitutes rape, but it's definitely sex under false pretenses. And it's not a good thing. So they're at least sexually unhealthy or abusive.

    4) The entire POINT of the Amazons is to go against the misogynistic Greek conception of the "women who hate men and live by themselves." To return to the idea that women become evil without men is...just not good.

    5) This is Wonder Woman. I don't want realism. (To be fair, I don't even really want realism in Batman.) I want heros and ideals and things I can aspire to in my own life.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  12. #72
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, Simone tried to make Diana/Nemesis a thing... And that's basically the same dynamic that Rucka went with for Diana/Steve.
    Pretty sure that hook up was created pre-Simone. I'm not sure if she was trying to make it work or if she was just trying to organically pull them apart rather than just drop him cold like most writers do.

    It's the one thing I admired most about Gail's WW run - her attempt to continue what came before and transition to where she wanted to go. I always felt she left too soon; that she had just finished cleaning up the Amazons Attack mess and such when the Odyssey story came along.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Pretty sure that hook up was created pre-Simone. I'm not sure if she was trying to make it work or if she was just trying to organically pull them apart rather than just drop him cold like most writers do.

    It's the one thing I admired most about Gail's WW run - her attempt to continue what came before and transition to where she wanted to go. I always felt she left too soon; that she had just finished cleaning up the Amazons Attack mess and such when the Odyssey story came along.
    Yeah, I don't love Simone's run on Diana because she kept giving such horrible endings to all the supporting characters. But it had glorious art, and I also appreciate Simone's attitude of "let's fix it, not ignore it." Though considering that nearly every other Wonder Woman writer has just ignored the problems with the previous run, I kinda wish she'd done that instead, since I think that might have been better.

    The end of Simone's run does feel very much like DC just said, "We have a bigger name coming on, wrap everything up, no you can't do one more arc, nope nope nope." I'm glad she got to do issue 600, though.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Peoples become evil when their society is built on rotten foundations, as is the case or he Amazons, who have been established as either coming to their island after having seen the horror of Man's World or directly created as those "superior beings", which in both case will lead to rejection of the other and evilness. That the Amazons are women is irrelevant to my distate of their society being depicted as anything but deeply flawed. Because what matters is that its very foundations are abominables.

    Year one is bad, at best. It's full of saccharine moments for the sake of cuteness, fails to make me care for any of the characters involved (a flaw it share with the rest of Rucka's run) and is generally here to kind of be there, without a clear reason to be, or anything of value to bring to the table. The bi-monthly schedule used didn't help, but even reading it in one go, I dislike it almost as much as The Lies/The Truth.

    Concerning Diana's as a nympho, it comes from her own lips, when she says that she is good at loving but not at romance (all the while dishing crap at her own New 52 relationship in the most disrespectful way).

    Overall, the art makes this garbage readable, but I fail to see what could entice readers who don't have extensive knowledge of those characters, because Rucka fails at building realistic and entertaining development for them (with a special mention for Cheetah who never came accross as tragic or loveable, but simply stupid, despite all the pathos that Rucka tried to inject into her character).

    Sorry for any typo, I'm writing it from my phone.

  15. #75
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Peoples become evil when their society is built on rotten foundations, as is the case or he Amazons, who have been established as either coming to their island after having seen the horror of Man's World or directly created as those "superior beings", which in both case will lead to rejection of the other and evilness. That the Amazons are women is irrelevant to my distate of their society being depicted as anything but deeply flawed. Because what matters is that its very foundations are abominables.

    Year one is bad, at best. It's full of saccharine moments for the sake of cuteness, fails to make me care for any of the characters involved (a flaw it share with the rest of Rucka's run) and is generally here to kind of be there, without a clear reason to be, or anything of value to bring to the table. The bi-monthly schedule used didn't help, but even reading it in one go, I dislike it almost as much as The Lies/The Truth.

    Concerning Diana's as a nympho, it comes from her own lips, when she says that she is good at loving but not at romance (all the while dishing crap at her own New 52 relationship in the most disrespectful way).

    Overall, the art makes this garbage readable, but I fail to see what could entice readers who don't have extensive knowledge of those characters, because Rucka fails at building realistic and entertaining development for them (with a special mention for Cheetah who never came accross as tragic or loveable, but simply stupid, despite all the pathos that Rucka tried to inject into her character).

    Sorry for any typo, I'm writing it from my phone.
    ...I don't understand how you're reading Diana saying she's good at loving as saying she's good at sex. I took that as her saying, "I love so many people, and I'm good at being a friend or a sister or a daughter, but I'm not good at romantic relationships."

    I think Rucka did an excellent job with Cheetah - I've never cared about her before, and I thought her story was nicely tragic.

    I think there's too much philosophical baggage wrapped up for both of us in the depiction of the Amazons. You find them horrifying unless they are, well, horrifying, whereas I find them inspiring.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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