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  1. #76
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    By that logic, Azzarello didn't retcon Diana's original origin, he simply "enhanced" it (his words, not mine), since Diana truly believed that she was born from clay prior to his run. But that's not how people felt about it, it still isn't how people feel about it. And yet, Greg Rucka's abomination of a second run get praised to the high heavens, while Azzarello's get trashed because he had the gal (eh) to depict a segregationist society in a bad light. It really sicken me. I prefer vastly his Amazons, has flawed as they may be, to Rucka's hollow and weak characters.
    Sorry, but no - he did a complete retcon.

    Diana didn't just 'believe' she was made of clay. The goddesses directly told her she was. There were plotlines which involved the clay (she was devolved to clay, there was a Clayface plotline involving her nature, and one or two similar storylines)

    As already stated, other writers, such as Simone, made it clear that Amazons are flawed. Azzarello made them murderous monsters who seduce men then chuck them overboard. He took a noble origin about maternal love for a child and turned it into 'the hero you love is the by-blow of an adulterous affair.' Hippolyta always had her faults, primarily based in how she would go to any and all lengths to protect Diana, including crossing ethical lines, but in this new origin, Diana isn't even the point.

    But the big issue is this - how is it that Atlantis and Gorilla City and Wakanda, all isolationist cultures, can thrive in science and magic and create great and wonderful things, but when it's an island of women, they remain barbarians stuck in the bronze age? Why is it only Themyscira, of all the various hidden cultures, doesn't progress at all, but those run by males thrive?

    You can write Atlanteans, Wakandans, Gorillas and Amazons with flaws, and many writers have. But to make the entire concept of their enlightened society impossible and the culture of 75+ years of comics null and void? That's how you create two dimensional hollow and weak characters.

    Not only that, but by Diana being the bastard child of Zeus who fled the island because she was different, he *drastically* altered the entire *point* of Wonder Woman in my eyes. Why Diana was so different and so special among all of the other heroes is that her backstory wasn't one of tragedy but of sacrifice. She gave up a wonderful existence to try and help others, which is a key element of the character; she fought for the right to leave 'paradise' behind so that she could try to stop the spread of evil in the world.

    Now she just wanted to get the hell away from an island of women who treated her badly because she was 'clay,' and Steve Trevor was her 'ticket out.'

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    It's not hard to understand why the Amazons didn't progress technologically : They are immortals and ( outside of Azz run) don't replenish their ranks since they don't have children. Those two reasons make hard to have any technological advancement, since there is no reason to have them (especially if they live on Paradise proper). Atlanteans had to deal with the Sunking of their lands, Wakandan were regularly in conflict with nearby tribes and all (as for GC, I dont know enough to make a guess).

  3. #78
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, Simone tried to make Diana/Nemesis a thing... And that's basically the same dynamic that Rucka went with for Diana/Steve.
    That one was a forced pairing and I beleived it happened during an old crossover event.
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  4. #79
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    That one was a forced pairing and I beleived it happened during an old crossover event.
    She went along with it, though. I thought it was kinda sweet, though I didn't really care one way or the other long term the way I care about Diana and Steve.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It's not hard to understand why the Amazons didn't progress technologically : They are immortals and ( outside of Azz run) don't replenish their ranks since they don't have children. Those two reasons make hard to have any technological advancement, since there is no reason to have them (especially if they live on Paradise proper). Atlanteans had to deal with the Sunking of their lands, Wakandan were regularly in conflict with nearby tribes and all (as for GC, I dont know enough to make a guess).
    That's the point, all of those other writers managed to write isolated (male-led) cultures becoming technologically advanced over the years and provide reasons for it. But Azz had to write specific reasons for the (female-led) one NOT to, in fact to be BEHIND the times.

    Basically it's not a good look when the only female-centric society is the one that's depicted as "backwards" and "primitive." Not to mention a society of murdering rapists (ugh) to boot.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    1) Diana is just a nympho in Rucka's run? In what way do you see that? She is shown having sex with Steve one time. Or are you talking about her affairs on Themiscyra? If the latter...really? Her life is shown to be very full and rich, and not just about her love affairs. Plus, that was likely just gossip from a jealous Io, since Diana only talks about one woman when she leaves as her lover.

    2) If you really think Year One is worthless on a writing level, all I can say is I believe you're wrong. You say you won't change your mind, but...it's a really lovely work, with incredible art, and fantastic character moments that really crystallizes who Diana is and what she can be.

    3) We can argue about whether the Amazons seducing the sailors constitutes rape, but it's definitely sex under false pretenses. And it's not a good thing. So they're at least sexually unhealthy or abusive.

    4) The entire POINT of the Amazons is to go against the misogynistic Greek conception of the "women who hate men and live by themselves." To return to the idea that women become evil without men is...just not good.

    5) This is Wonder Woman. I don't want realism. (To be fair, I don't even really want realism in Batman.) I want heros and ideals and things I can aspire to in my own life.
    Also why would it matter if she's had multiple lovers. She's a beautiful, intelligent, charismatic bisexual woman who lives on an isolated island full of other charismatic intelligent beautiful women. Also the Greeks and Romans didn't have the same "hang-ups" when it came to sexuality that modern culture does in a lot of places.

    If everything was exactly the same, but it was a male hero in her place instead, then this wouldn't even come up as an issue for most people I bet.

  7. #82
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    She went along with it, though. I thought it was kinda sweet, though I didn't really care one way or the other long term the way I care about Diana and Steve.
    In the end Gail Simone dropped the relationship because it was not popular. Ah Post-Crisis was not very kind to Steve was it? I read the old George Perez stories and laughed when Diana talked about how she had not experienced a relationship with a man because the one who would have shown her that experience was old enough to be her father. I legitimately believe that Steve Trevor can be an amazing character the same way Lois Lane and Catwoman are.The live action movie proved that and succeeded where DC's legion of writers failed to do. I and some people have made much headway in trying to make an interesting and engaging Steve Trevor my friend Nightdreamer channeled the spirit of the G.I. Joes into Steve. in fact the Oddfellows if DC tried could be their own G.I Joes if they desired.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    The live action movie proved that and succeeded where DC's legion of writers failed to do. I and some people have made much headway in trying to make an interesting and engaging Steve Trevor my friend Nightdreamer channeled the spirit of the G.I. Joes into Steve. in fact the Oddfellows if DC tried could be their own G.I Joes if they desired.
    So what you're telling me is--my G.I. Joe doll and my Wonder Woman barbie doll should be put together in the same spot, instead of standing in two different places in the room as they are now. Right, message received.
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  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    That's the point, all of those other writers managed to write isolated (male-led) cultures becoming technologically advanced over the years and provide reasons for it. But Azz had to write specific reasons for the (female-led) one NOT to, in fact to be BEHIND the times.

    Basically it's not a good look when the only female-centric society is the one that's depicted as "backwards" and "primitive." Not to mention a society of murdering rapists (ugh) to boot.
    Herm... no. he did what was realistic and logical with what he was given. That the Amazons have been isolated from the rest of the world (as in, totally cut off) since the Bronze Age is a staple of their depiction at D.C. (I can't remember them interacting with Man's World before Diana's departure). In those conditions, they couldn't have developed technologies beyond what they had before coming to the island, and what was needed to live on it. As for the Atlanteans, I just realized that most of their technology seems to stem from before the Sunking, when they interacted heavily with the outside world (per New 52's story, at least).

  10. #85
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    So what you're telling me is--my G.I. Joe doll and my Wonder Woman barbie doll should be put together in the same spot, instead of standing in two different places in the room as they are now. Right, message received.
    Not really just that DC should look to other characters and sources to help boost their characters who have nothing much to them. The same way Chris Claremont did for the X-Men. But if you're not being sarcastic I say I'm glad to have made your day. And if DC makes Steve and the Oddfellows into their version of G.I. Joe sign me up in fact the movie versions of Steve, Sameer, Charlie, Chief, and Etta (in the Golden Age at least) can make for a very entertaining military group like how the Joes fought over the top enemies not just Cobra but also their ancient predecessor (depending on the continuity) Cobra-La. And some of Diana's enemies could even be fought by the Joes.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 03-09-2018 at 12:14 PM.
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  11. #86
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Unless the story takes inspiration from WW Vol 1 #9, I don't think I can look forward to Historia. The Rucka thing is whatever.
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  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm reading Rebirth WW right now, just to be sure that my rejection wasn't just some reaction on the fly, and the only good thing is the art. the writing his atrocious, the characters either ridiculous or hardly worth respect (I still hate Diana in a mental institution and how he basically wrote that she was just a nympho)..
    Lol, what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Concerning Diana's as a nympho, it comes from her own lips, when she says that she is good at loving but not at romance (all the while dishing crap at her own New 52 relationship in the most disrespectful way).
    Even if she meant she was good at love making, why does that make he a nympho? Is it wrong that she enjoys sex? Would you even say such a thing if she were a man?

    Are you just mad that she didn't say she enjoyed sex with Superman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Herm... no. he did what was realistic and logical with what he was given. That the Amazons have been isolated from the rest of the world (as in, totally cut off) since the Bronze Age is a staple of their depiction at D.C. (I can't remember them interacting with Man's World before Diana's departure). In those conditions, they couldn't have developed technologies beyond what they had before coming to the island, and what was needed to live on it. As for the Atlanteans, I just realized that most of their technology seems to stem from before the Sunking, when they interacted heavily with the outside world (per New 52's story, at least).
    I think we're on shaky ground asking for realism from a set up of immortal warrior women who drink from a fountain of youth provided by Aphrodite and living on an island hidden between dimensions. Why do you want realism in superhero comics, especially one steeped in mythology even more than the others?

    They also had the Magic Sphere, which allowed them to witness events in the outside world and sometimes even the future, which allowed them to replicate and improve upon technology. And Azzarello even had them leave the island for brief periods, why did he not deign to have them pick up some stuff to tinker with on the way back? Because he wanted to emphasize that they were ass backwards because they were sick of being victimized and wanted to be left alone.

    There is a lot of victim blaming if we're calling the Amazons turn to "evil" inevitable just because they got sick of being raped and abused. They were not harming anyone with that decision until Azzarello made it so. And the stories prior to the New 52 had the Bana Amazons to show what that setup was like, and they were more developed in four issues than the Amazons were throughout the entire New 52 run.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    I think we're on shaky ground asking for realism from a set up of immortal warrior women who drink from a fountain of youth provided by Aphrodite and living on an island hidden between dimensions. Why do you want realism in superhero comics, especially one steeped in mythology even more than the others?

    They also had the Magic Sphere, which allowed them to witness events in the outside world and sometimes even the future, which allowed them to replicate and improve upon technology. And Azzarello even had them leave the island for brief periods, why did he not deign to have them pick up some stuff to tinker with on the way back? Because he wanted to emphasize that they were ass backwards because they were sick of being victimized and wanted to be left alone.

    There is a lot of victim blaming if we're calling the Amazons turn to "evil" inevitable just because they got sick of being raped and abused. They were not harming anyone with that decision until Azzarello made it so. And the stories prior to the New 52 had the Bana Amazons to show what that setup was like, and they were more developed in four issues than the Amazons were throughout the entire New 52 run.
    If they have magic and are stepped into mythology, I wouldn't like very much for them to be light-years ahead of everyone when it comes to technology, I fin that it doesn't really mesh well together. And considering how they were disgusted with Man's World, it's not surprising that they would refuse to bring back anything from it during Azzarello's run. It doesn't surprise me, nor do I take it as him wanting them to be backward because they are a all-female society.

    And yes, a society built on segregation, no matter the reason, is sick and can only breed sick peoples, bar the rare exceptions (almost miracles) like Diana. That the Amazons are women shouldn't stop anyone from depicting it for what it is. I don't see anybody clamoring that the Atlanteans being depicted as racists and xenophobic jerks is bad for them. Yet, the Amazons who have even more reasons to be xenophobic and sexists, aren't, by writer's virtue, which is stupid.

    It isn't making them a service, it isn't making them feminist icons. It allows people who think that separation between peoples, whatever the basis, can be good, to have an example of it in books they may read (even if I can't picture most of those peoples reading Woner Woman). And that's a problem. I have no problem with raped and abused women forming a temporary group, or even having a durable and secura location they can gather between themselves to deal with their scars and suffering. But there is a whole world of difference between that and immortal warrior-women living on an island removed from the world at large, which they even call Man's World (not "our world" or "the outside world", but "Man's World" which show how removed they are from it, and how themselves are proud to not be a part of the it).

  14. #89
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    If they have magic and are stepped into mythology, I wouldn't like very much for them to be light-years ahead of everyone when it comes to technology, I fin that it doesn't really mesh well together. And considering how they were disgusted with Man's World, it's not surprising that they would refuse to bring back anything from it during Azzarello's run. It doesn't surprise me, nor do I take it as him wanting them to be backward because they are a all-female society.

    And yes, a society built on segregation, no matter the reason, is sick and can only breed sick peoples, bar the rare exceptions (almost miracles) like Diana. That the Amazons are women shouldn't stop anyone from depicting it for what it is. I don't see anybody clamoring that the Atlanteans being depicted as racists and xenophobic jerks is bad for them. Yet, the Amazons who have even more reasons to be xenophobic and sexists, aren't, by writer's virtue, which is stupid.

    It isn't making them a service, it isn't making them feminist icons. It allows people who think that separation between peoples, whatever the basis, can be good, to have an example of it in books they may read (even if I can't picture most of those peoples reading Woner Woman). And that's a problem. I have no problem with raped and abused women forming a temporary group, or even having a durable and secura location they can gather between themselves to deal with their scars and suffering. But there is a whole world of difference between that and immortal warrior-women living on an island removed from the world at large, which they even call Man's World (not "our world" or "the outside world", but "Man's World" which show how removed they are from it, and how themselves are proud to not be a part of the it).
    So...basically you just don't like the entire mythology of Wonder Woman until Azz "fixed" it...

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  15. #90
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Segregation isn't inherently bad though, forced segregation by a stronger party is, but every person and community has the right to associate with whomever they desire. I personally choose to separate myself from people I don't like.
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