Iron Man, Human Torch, Storm & Thing vs. Hulk & She-Hulk

[The Arbiter]

Btw, does Storm have any defense against the thunderclaps? Because I'm pretty those still splatter Storm regardless.

If hurting Red Hulk is legit, probably the answer is no lol.

But if its not, then maybe she could resist it by generating her own gust of wind to clash with it? Eh...

[Pendaran]

Btw, does Storm have any defense against the thunderclaps? Because I'm pretty those still splatter Storm regardless.

Done at full force to where they do things take out whole buildings in one go? No, not particularly.

Actually this is convenient for an illustration of "how to argue against a showing without going so far as to pretend the contents of the comic are different from what they are in reality". So, in the comics in question no less, Storm actually comes out of a thunderclap. It just knocks her around. I'm frankly shocked the people who have purportedly read these comics haven't tried to invoke it for "the thunderclap won't do jack", instead trying to play up a thing in them Storm could only do with explicit help, repeatedly.

However I would note to that, considering that we've seen the Hulk's thunderclaps do things like waste buildings, mess up tanks (a thing considerably more durable than Storm), send Iron Man and Hercules (beings vastly more durable than Storm) outright hurled away and actually hurt Iron Man, what all have you, I would call that a really low showing for the Hulk's thunderclap, unless someone wants to argue Storm is more durable than a tank, or Iron Man.

See? I don't claim the showing never happened, or talk about it having happened in a way that has nothing to do, with how it happened. I instead point to other things that happened with the Hulk thunderclapping things, involving the effect being far more powerful, on things far more durable, to say "that was a really low showing, I don't think it's worth saying it counts for much".

So to bring that full circle "Here is Storm twice only being able to take out the Hulk by attacking his brain as a result of working with someone else attacking his brain". If someone wanted to say "well that undersells what Storm could do with brain attacks", to then say "because she totally took out this much less powerful guy once that way by herself", doesn't actually work. This is why it was asked "what examples do you have of Storm taking out class 100 bricks with brain frying by herself". If the answer is "zero", then all we have is Storm only being able to take out the Hulk that way with help. To claim she can do it on her own anyway, is to make a claim with zero support, in the face of actual examples showing the opposite.

[Pendaran]

If hurting Red Hulk is legit, probably the answer is no lol.

But if its not, then maybe she could resist it by generating her own gust of wind to clash with it? Eh...

A bunch of times the thunderclap, done at full force, is a straight up sonic boom/wave of kinetic force type deal, not some wind thing.

[The Arbiter]

A bunch of times the thunderclap, done at full force, is a straight up sonic boom/wave of kinetic force type deal, not some wind thing.

Actually, I agree with this, yeah. It does seem much more like a shockwave than any sort of gust.

[Captain Morgan]

You're straight up ignoring the contents of these comics now. I'm not really sure at this point how anyone can reply to your posts to be honest with you? Like it's one thing to say something like "this was a low showing for Storm", or "This is why I don't think this performance is overall valid". It's another to go "Storm took the Hulk out, despite the actual content of the comic books being shown". The Hulk only drops in the first one after Cable zaps his mind. That's just the actual contents of the comic book. You're not arguing with me at this point, you're arguing with the comic book. In the second one we see Cable himself note that the plan, specifically, verbatim, is that the two of them attacking the Hulk at once will shut down his mind. You're basically saying "it doesn't matter what the comic said or showed, what I say happened is what actually happened in the comic".

The idea here is to talk about the contents of these comics as if they're something that can be weighed for worth or discounted for lack of worth to a character's demonstrated ability, but the entire basis of that first requires acknowledging that the comic book exists in the first place in order to do so.

What they are arguing is that Storm's ability to mess with people's brains has improved since then, as evidenced by say messing with Sinister's brain sans any help. And they argue Hulk's brain isn't any more resistant to this tactic than Sinister's, or I guess robot Thor even though that was a robot and it didn't even drop him for a 10 count.

It isn't a good argument, because Storm doesn't have examples of affecting brains on Hulk's level and Hulk has various examples of shrugging off internal attacks and a mixed record at dealing with telepaths messing with his brain. i don't really see why the fact that a plot device installed in Hulk's head can shut him down means Storm can.

EDIT: OK your later post means you clearly get this.

[Pendaran]

What they are arguing is that Storm's ability to mess with people's brains has improved since then, as evidenced by say messing with Sinister's brain sans any help.

I'm aware that's what they're trying to argue, that's exactly my own point of "Sinister has no relevance to this", considering his being vastly less powerful. To which their reply was.. baffling. And thus why I keep asking for Storm pulling off that move by herself on a relevant level of power and getting... nothing.

That's also why I pointed out that they, no, Storm in 444 totally attacked the Hulk's cranium without guidance. It was still only 1/2 of the total effect that took the Hulk. To which their reply was... to repeatedly ignore that.

i don't really see why the fact that a plot device installed in Hulk's head can shut him down means Storm can.

No reason whatsoever considering that we've seen her twice need help to do so.

[Captain Morgan]

This is just weird because we have such a clear cut example of Storm not being able to solo the Hulk... I am pretty sure we need some stronger evidence that she actually can. I mean even in the comics from the 90s Cable was citing that Storm controlled electricity a la the stuff coursing through Hulk's brain, and it isn't like that tactic or fact has changed.

[Pendaran]

or I guess robot Thor even though that was a robot and it didn't even drop him for a 10 count.

That's yet another example of Storm directly being unable to do much with brain frying the more powerful someone gets, yeah. All it accomplished was briefly dropping Fake Thor, at which point he gets back up and keeps fighting.

And when his head was indeed full of robot parts... yeaaahh.

[Pendaran]

This is just weird because we have such a clear cut example of Storm not being able to solo the Hulk... I am pretty sure we need some stronger evidence that she actually can. I mean even in the comics from the 90s Cable was citing that Storm controlled electricity a la the stuff coursing through Hulk's brain, and it isn't like that tactic or fact has changed.

It's not that weird honestly. I mean that these posts are happening. The argument is weird in the face of multiple showings, sure. That it is exists is not exactly unexpected.

[stormphoenix]

It’s not that far fetch for Storm to shut down his brain. It’s interesting everyone seems to think she Still needs help as of now to shut a person brain off. She doesn’t. Claiming Thor wasn’t dropped down does not devalue the fact she sent an EMP to his Brain. And that’s exactly what happened Clone Thor dropped, but we found out that He was a robot with a backup drive. You can tell he no longer had pupils in his eyes. You can’t tell me real Thor would survive type attack. And if that wasn’t enough proof she attacks Mr.Sinster directly scrambled his Neural system. It’s also interesting to claim Storm needs to do this attack to Class 100(which you don’t) But Hulk gets dropped by a device placed on his head. That did the EXACT thing Storm did to Sinister. Storm has proven she no longer needs help to attack your brain.

[Pendaran]

You're straight up arguing that the contents of comics did not happen at this point.

[Pendaran]

with a backup drive.

Where, in any comic book, did we find out that is the reason Fake Thor got back up after being zapped by Storm. Issue number? Specific statement that resembles something like.. "Thor got back up because he was a robot with a backup drive"

I don't mean you saying "because Thor is a robot, that's the only reason he got back up". Yes, fake Thor was a robot. What does that have to do with his having got back up to keep fighting? Do you have some panel of Thor "activating his backup drive"? Someone saying that's what happened?

[Pendaran]

It’s also interesting to claim Storm needs to do this attack to Class 100(which you don’t)

When Storm could only drop the Hulk, a class 100 brick, via this very attack method, by timing her attack to happen alongside someone else's attack, what does her then doing it by herself to someone much weaker demonstrate of any meaning whatsoever? You ignore posts, questions, scans, over and over, so to be clear, this is not a rhetorical question.

You can tell he no longer had pupils in his eyes.

Is this actually your entire argument that she in fact "killed" or otherwise took out fake Thor and he then restored himself from backup? Everyone from Storm to unmasked Panther to random Wakandan embassy staff person are randomly drawn in this comic at some point having no pupils, and then having pupils again later. Fake Thor, multiple times while fighting, is drawn as having no pupils. The only one of them that really has an excuse for it besides "bad art" or "lazy inking" is Storm (though there is at least one panel where she's not using her powers or doing much of anything where, all the same, no pupils). Otherwise plenty of people roll around this comic pupil-less for at least a panel while doing their things. Is that it?

As an example, here's Thor, pre brain zap, no pupils:

https://imgur.com/a/32x7P

Do you want every single shot from this comic of whenever someone is drawn without pupils? Because there are a bunch. There's a three page per comic scan limit per poster but I can maybe go one over.

In the very page you are talking about where we see him drop, when he gets back up, and is talking, also no pupils while he does this. Unless you have someone from the comics straight up saying anything like your attempt at excusing this showing, you're basically saying "any time someone was drawn without pupils in this comic, including fake Thor himself, that doesn't mean anything. This one specific panel when he was out of the whole thing, it totally means exactly what I am saying." You're basically taking bad art and building... this.

You can’t tell me real Thor would survive type attack.

The very same attack, used twice on the Hulk, was only able to cause ruinous damage to him by being half of someone else's attack. Why wouldn't Thor be able to survive that without the other half of it? You have moved up in your current argument to that Storm can now one shot kill basically whoever as long as they have a brain.

[The Watcher]

Temporarily Closed Pending Review