Lord of the Rings - Thor

[jackolover]

Is there any way that Thor, Odin and Asgard could be incorporated into the LOTR? The Orks, Fairies and Trolls of LOTR seem to fit with Norse Legend very well, and, the magic objects, like rings and Hammers and swords, go together very nicely indeed. I could see one day, that Marvel procures the LOTR and makes it into one of the Asgard 9 worlds, or expands it to a few worlds.

There seem to be a lot more male Wizards in LOTR than in Asgard, where you have more women witches and magicians, but other than that, I could see Thor and the warriors 3 and Sif wondering the lands of the LOTR in search of adventure. Just watching Fellowship of the Ring reminds me of one of the dwarf worlds of Asgard, and the many powerful demons that roam that magical realm. I don't think Thor would be out of place in that movie.

You put a horned helmet on Frodo and you have kid Loki.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Is there any way that Thor, Odin and Asgard could be incorporated into the LOTR? The Orks, Fairies and Trolls of LOTR seem to fit with Norse Legend very well, and, the magic objects, like rings and Hammers and swords, go together very nicely indeed. I could see one day, that Marvel procures the LOTR and makes it into one of the Asgard 9 worlds, or expands it to a few worlds.

There seem to be a lot more male Wizards in LOTR than in Asgard, where you have more women witches and magicians, but other than that, I could see Thor and the warriors 3 and Sif wondering the lands of the LOTR in search of adventure. Just watching Fellowship of the Ring reminds me of one of the dwarf worlds of Asgard, and the many powerful demons that roam that magical realm. I don't think Thor would be out of place in that movie.

You put a horned helmet on Frodo and you have kid Loki.

No he wouldn't, Middle Earth could always be the eleventh relam if this ever happens of course

[Darth Phoenix]

No he wouldn't, Middle Earth could always be the eleventh relam if this ever happens of course

It would explain why the elves seemed so anoyed at the humans and dwarves hanging around.

[Kieran_Frost]

Does this make Loki Saurman? Or Wormtongue?

[vitruvian]

Is there any way that Thor, Odin and Asgard could be incorporated into the LOTR? The Orks, Fairies and Trolls of LOTR seem to fit with Norse Legend very well, and, the magic objects, like rings and Hammers and swords, go together very nicely indeed. I could see one day, that Marvel procures the LOTR and makes it into one of the Asgard 9 worlds, or expands it to a few worlds.

There seem to be a lot more male Wizards in LOTR than in Asgard, where you have more women witches and magicians, but other than that, I could see Thor and the warriors 3 and Sif wondering the lands of the LOTR in search of adventure. Just watching Fellowship of the Ring reminds me of one of the dwarf worlds of Asgard, and the many powerful demons that roam that magical realm. I don't think Thor would be out of place in that movie.

You put a horned helmet on Frodo and you have kid Loki.

I think you honestly need to reread LOTR, because a lot of this, not just a little, is just plain off.

Yes, a lot of Tolkien's Middle-Earth mythos is based, more or less loosely, on Norse and other Northern European folklore and legend and mythology. That's where lots of things, including his version of the elves and dwarves, are derived, and there are extensive other parallels - but not always the way you seem to be thinking. For example, the closest equivalents to Odin in the Tolkien mythos are two - Sauron (represented by the one eye) and Gandalf (who is very similar to the mortal form mythic Odin appeared in when wandering, but not in all details).

Anyway, just some of the top points that are problems with your proposal:
1) Orcs, not Orks.
2) No Fairies in Middle-Earth, as Elves are quite different. I suppose one could make a case for Bombadil and Goldberry being rather fae nature spirits, but that's still not what most people think of when using the term fairy.
3) The Nine Worlds thing derives from the myths, and even though they're introducing a Tenth for Angela to come from (which would seem to make it detached from any Judeo-Christian concept of Heaven and not at all related to anybody that Daimon Hellstrom's dad had a beef with), it's not really the sort of scheme you just throw new places into willy-nilly.
4) And in any case, Middle-Earth is not supposed to be a separate world from our own, but a far past time on our own Earth (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth and many other sources for this). The end of the Third Age (which we see in LOTR) he placed at about 6,000 years prior to his day, so well into prehistory, and certainly before the most recent few cycles of Ragnarok. Now, it's possible that the Valar are earlier versions of the Asgardians, or even developed into Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and that certain places like Valinor split off from Middle-Earth/Midgard to become some of the Nine Worlds such as Alfheim, but it's all in the past, not the present.
5) The idea that there are a lot of Wizards in Middle-Earth is dead wrong. There were five total, only three of whom we ever meet, and far from being simply humans who learned a lot of magic, they were more on the order of angelic beings (Maiar) sent into Middle-Earth by the Valar (essentially the gods, at least the lesser ones beneath Eru Illuvatar, the Creator) to help out, with Saruman eventually becoming corrupted. And that's pretty much it for magic, unless you want to count the arts of the Elves and Dwarves as making them lower case w wizards. If you count up the various male wizards and magic-users appearing in Asgard and others of the Nine Worlds in Marvel's Thor comics, there are actually a whole lot more of them.
6) As to Frodo and Loki... wow, no, their personalities and origins and other traits couldn't be more different.

[jackolover]

I think you honestly need to reread LOTR, because a lot of this, not just a little, is just plain off.

Yes, a lot of Tolkien's Middle-Earth mythos is based, more or less loosely, on Norse and other Northern European folklore and legend and mythology. That's where lots of things, including his version of the elves and dwarves, are derived, and there are extensive other parallels - but not always the way you seem to be thinking. For example, the closest equivalents to Odin in the Tolkien mythos are two - Sauron (represented by the one eye) and Gandalf (who is very similar to the mortal form mythic Odin appeared in when wandering, but not in all details).

Anyway, just some of the top points that are problems with your proposal:
1) Orcs, not Orks.
2) No Fairies in Middle-Earth, as Elves are quite different. I suppose one could make a case for Bombadil and Goldberry being rather fae nature spirits, but that's still not what most people think of when using the term fairy.
3) The Nine Worlds thing derives from the myths, and even though they're introducing a Tenth for Angela to come from (which would seem to make it detached from any Judeo-Christian concept of Heaven and not at all related to anybody that Daimon Hellstrom's dad had a beef with), it's not really the sort of scheme you just throw new places into willy-nilly.
4) And in any case, Middle-Earth is not supposed to be a separate world from our own, but a far past time on our own Earth (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth and many other sources for this). The end of the Third Age (which we see in LOTR) he placed at about 6,000 years prior to his day, so well into prehistory, and certainly before the most recent few cycles of Ragnarok. Now, it's possible that the Valar are earlier versions of the Asgardians, or even developed into Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, and that certain places like Valinor split off from Middle-Earth/Midgard to become some of the Nine Worlds such as Alfheim, but it's all in the past, not the present.
5) The idea that there are a lot of Wizards in Middle-Earth is dead wrong. There were five total, only three of whom we ever meet, and far from being simply humans who learned a lot of magic, they were more on the order of angelic beings (Maiar) sent into Middle-Earth by the Valar (essentially the gods, at least the lesser ones beneath Eru Illuvatar, the Creator) to help out, with Saruman eventually becoming corrupted. And that's pretty much it for magic, unless you want to count the arts of the Elves and Dwarves as making them lower case w wizards. If you count up the various male wizards and magic-users appearing in Asgard and others of the Nine Worlds in Marvel's Thor comics, there are actually a whole lot more of them.
6) As to Frodo and Loki... wow, no, their personalities and origins and other traits couldn't be more different.

Thanks for the comparisons, Vitruvian. That was very nice work.

Though my Loki/Frodo idea was off, some of the other comparisons you make with Middle Earth and Asgard aren't too far fetched. Some adjustments would have to be made, of cause, but look what Marvel stretched, putting Heven into the Norse myths, by bringing in Angela from such a far away universe as Spawn. Something like the Middle Earth wouldn't have to be stretched all that far to accommodate it into the 10 worlds. A tweek here and there in the writing and it wouldn't be too difficult to bring it into the modern age, out of the 6000 years ago that ME is set in.

[vitruvian]

Thanks for the comparisons, Vitruvian. That was very nice work.

Though my Loki/Frodo idea was off, some of the other comparisons you make with Middle Earth and Asgard aren't too far fetched. Some adjustments would have to be made, of cause, but look what Marvel stretched, putting Heven into the Norse myths, by bringing in Angela from such a far away universe as Spawn. Something like the Middle Earth wouldn't have to be stretched all that far to accommodate it into the 10 worlds. A tweek here and there in the writing and it wouldn't be too difficult to bring it into the modern age, out of the 6000 years ago that ME is set in.

I think it works far, far better as part of the prehistory of all the Nine Worlds than as some alternate dimension (unless possibly an alternate past), but if Disney/Marvel ever acquired the rights (either full or licensed for comics) it would certainly be a natural for a time travel story involving Thor and some other Asgardians, just like they've done stories mixing Thor with the Hyborian Age in the past when Marvel had those rights. We've had a lot of time travel stories where the heroes went back into their own personal histories to tamper with the time stream, or got previews of the future effects of their actions, but not a whole lot of visits to other times in history and prehistory (which are often both less confusing and more fun) lately.

And even at that, I suspect you need to reread (or read for the first time?) Tolkien to really grasp how much more different than you're suggesting the two settings truly are. Most of the magic in Middle-Earth, even that wielded by the Wizards, the most powerful of the Elves, and Sauron, is really, really subtle in comparison to the displays of power you see by Asgardian magic-users.

The thing with Heven/Heaven, we'll have to see how that plays out before we can judge how well or badly it works. I'm willing to wait and see, but it does seem rather odd for a place whose name is closely associated with the completely different Judeo-Christian mythos to suddenly be a secret part of the Norse/Nine Worlds mythos. I guess the rights to Angela didn't come with the rights to any of her hellish adversaries, or the Nine Worlds would have to accommodate some version of Hell (as opposed to Hel's Hel/Niflheim) for those guys to come from. The flashback to Odin going to war with Heven over some slight also raises the question of how Bor and Cul dealt with Heven, since Odin being the monarch in that flashback points to it being after Odin deposed Cul/the Serpent... unless we're supposed to forget all about that part of Asgardian secret history now that Fear Itself is a few years behind us.

[DebkoX]

Kinda different but, the other day I was watching LoTR and I though to myself 'Imagine if the Thor movies were like this'

[doctormistermaster]

Maybe an Odin and Manwë team up!

Overall I would say it doesn't really work but if you are attempting to create some fan-fiction on the subject all the power to you. Just remember that Middle Earth is extremely complex and extends further than LOTR, the Hobbit and even the Silmarillion. This summer alone I finally got around to starting Unfinished Tales which really expanded my understanding of Númenórean civilisation. It contains various cultures and a creation myth that can clearly be at odds with the Marvel Universe. If you wished to rework the Marvel Norse pantheon into Ainur (the Valar and Maiar were often considered gods if I remember correctly) that might be interesting but would conflict with enough of the history of both works to make them somewhat unrecognisable.

[jackolover]

Maybe an Odin and Manwë team up!

Overall I would say it doesn't really work but if you are attempting to create some fan-fiction on the subject all the power to you. Just remember that Middle Earth is extremely complex and extends further than LOTR, the Hobbit and even the Silmarillion. This summer alone I finally got around to starting Unfinished Tales which really expanded my understanding of Númenórean civilisation. It contains various cultures and a creation myth that can clearly be at odds with the Marvel Universe. If you wished to rework the Marvel Norse pantheon into Ainur (the Valar and Maiar were often considered gods if I remember correctly) that might be interesting but would conflict with enough of the history of both works to make them somewhat unrecognisable.

I just thought the complexity of LOTR was better than the Thor movies. I don't see any problems with the various societies in LOTR, but I do see a better way to write the settings of the 9 worlds in this kind of style. Where it's more on a secret mission level, rather than flamboyant shows of power. Thats why an amalgum seems so attractive to me.

[jackolover]

The thing with Heven/Heaven, we'll have to see how that plays out before we can judge how well or badly it works. I'm willing to wait and see, but it does seem rather odd for a place whose name is closely associated with the completely different Judeo-Christian mythos to suddenly be a secret part of the Norse/Nine Worlds mythos. I guess the rights to Angela didn't come with the rights to any of her hellish adversaries, or the Nine Worlds would have to accommodate some version of Hell (as opposed to Hel's Hel/Niflheim) for those guys to come from. The flashback to Odin going to war with Heven over some slight also raises the question of how Bor and Cul dealt with Heven, since Odin being the monarch in that flashback points to it being after Odin deposed Cul/the Serpent... unless we're supposed to forget all about that part of Asgardian secret history now that Fear Itself is a few years behind us.

I would have to imagine Heven was created before Odin had Angela as his daughter. Remember, Cul made the Asgardian terrain with his power, and disliked Midgard which he thought was a toilet. I think Odin then created the 10 worlds after he defeated Cul, to reflect his world view of the Universe. Once the war between Odin and the Queen of Heven started, it was then that Angela became a bartering chip. What Odin did after that is a mystery. I don't know why he would leave his daughters body in the care of the Queen of Heven, but I can imagine the reaction he had by separating this place from everyone else, but still, why not dissolve the Tenth world? He made it after all, so he can destroy it. But I suppose these are the rules of Gods, and just because Odin doesn't like Heven, he has to play the game he himself set in motion, for his own amusement.

What is a surprise to Odin and the Allmother is that their daughter has grown up apart from their eyes, and it is a joyous occasion to be reunited with her, having been the ward of Heven this whole time. It's almost like Jet Black coming back fro Dimension Z. Angela will have no foundation to interact with a society, (Asgard and Midgard), that she had been taught was the domain of evil gods and what evil gods manufacture. Angela might even sway towards uncle Cul in that regard.

[vitruvian]

I would have to imagine Heven was created before Odin had Angela as his daughter. Remember, Cul made the Asgardian terrain with his power, and disliked Midgard which he thought was a toilet. I think Odin then created the 10 worlds after he defeated Cul, to reflect his world view of the Universe.

Odin didn't make the Ten Worlds, except possibly remaking Midgard according to some accounts. If they didn't exist before he was king of Asgard, there wouldn't have been any place for Bor and Cul to be kings or even exist in. Even with Cul, Asgard itself existed before him, otherwise there would have been no place to be born.

Once the war between Odin and the Queen of Heven started, it was then that Angela became a bartering chip. What Odin did after that is a mystery. I don't know why he would leave his daughters body in the care of the Queen of Heven, but I can imagine the reaction he had by separating this place from everyone else, but still, why not dissolve the Tenth world? He made it after all, so he can destroy it. But I suppose these are the rules of Gods, and just because Odin doesn't like Heven, he has to play the game he himself set in motion, for his own amusement.

No, he didn't make it. And the current Odin didn't make Midgard/Earth, either... remember, the current Odin is the latest in an iteration of many Odins throughout the cycles of Ragnarok, and the latest cycle started within historical times, while Earth has been around for billions of years and was host to Gaea and the other Elder Gods well before any of the more human-like pantheons like the Asgardians came on the scene.

What is a surprise to Odin and the Allmother is that their daughter has grown up apart from their eyes, and it is a joyous occasion to be reunited with her, having been the ward of Heven this whole time. It's almost like Jet Black coming back fro Dimension Z. Angela will have no foundation to interact with a society, (Asgard and Midgard), that she had been taught was the domain of evil gods and what evil gods manufacture. Angela might even sway towards uncle Cul in that regard.

The thing with Heven that you're ignoring is that it's more properly part of a completely different mythos, where Heaven is always pitted against, not Asgard, but Hell - and not Hela's domain, but that of Mephisto or Daimon Hellstrom's daddy. And yes, in the various Hellstorm and Ghost Rider and Nightstalkers titles, we have indeed seen that the MU encompasses or is in contact with a number of Heaven dimensions with angels as well as Hell dimensions, although they're visited or seen less frequently.

[Hypestyle]

more creatures from LOTR should be used for Thor to fight against.

[jackolover]

Odin didn't make the Ten Worlds, except possibly remaking Midgard according to some accounts. If they didn't exist before he was king of Asgard, there wouldn't have been any place for Bor and Cul to be kings or even exist in. Even with Cul, Asgard itself existed before him, otherwise there would have been no place to be born.



No, he didn't make it. And the current Odin didn't make Midgard/Earth, either... remember, the current Odin is the latest in an iteration of many Odins throughout the cycles of Ragnarok, and the latest cycle started within historical times, while Earth has been around for billions of years and was host to Gaea and the other Elder Gods well before any of the more human-like pantheons like the Asgardians came on the scene.



The thing with Heven that you're ignoring is that it's more properly part of a completely different mythos, where Heaven is always pitted against, not Asgard, but Hell - and not Hela's domain, but that of Mephisto or Daimon Hellstrom's daddy. And yes, in the various Hellstorm and Ghost Rider and Nightstalkers titles, we have indeed seen that the MU encompasses or is in contact with a number of Heaven dimensions with angels as well as Hell dimensions, although they're visited or seen less frequently.

Thanks for all this input. It clears up my understanding a little more. I forgot about the pre-Asgardian Gods and what they created, and that the current iteration of Odin and Asgard is indeed a more modern version, so Odin may be unaware of the roots of the 10 worlds. I just wonder if after each Ragnarok death, Odin remembers everything from his previous iterations, because he remembered Cul, and that was a few iterations ago I would have thought, as the current Thor has no memory of Cul? And as we saw in one Fear Itself Book, Odin cradled baby Thor after he killed Cul. Are we to understand the Ragnarok of the 2000's by Dan Jurgens was the first after Cul was defeated? That would make the Ragnarok of Avengers Disassembled the second.

[ImprobableQuestion]

Pretty sure nobody has brought this up yet, but I think it's worth mentioning that Midgard translates into "Middle Earth" in Norse. And it's somewhat implied that LoTR is an alternate past to our Earth. After Sauron fell the Age of Men began. The hobbits remained too, but it's stated many times that we'd never find them unless we wanted to. So if you imagine Alfheim as the Grey Havens and assume that all the orcs that men didn't kill fled to the distant realms, then you'd have a place to start.