Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Crimz]

When you look at comic book characters with a minimum of scrutiny, the Fantastic Four are the easiest targets. It's not my fault.

For what is worth, Ben Grimm at least is a good person and a good character that knows better than to fall in love with villains that try to kill his family and he doesn't strike me as the type of guy who would be okay with his three years-old child spending time with a violent villainous dictator.

All of the FF are good people...

[The Ray]

Easy for what?

To see the cases of stupidity.

All of the FF are good people...

Valeria and Sue seem to admire violent villains a bit too much.

[Abe]

To see the cases of stupidity.



Valeria and Sue seem to admire violent villains a bit too much.

Stupidity among blonde female characters?

[The Ray]

Stupidity among blonde female characters?

...yes, I guess? It's on the writers, not on me. Maybe they have a negative bias against blonde female characters.

It stands out when one of the characters is supposed to be a super-genius.

[Iron Maiden]

It just more of the "Doom is not really a bad guy he is just misunderstood" crap that has ruined Doom as a character for the last 15 years. Writers like Doom and bend over backwards to try and find reason for him to be a good guy instead of a villain. Sort of the same thing they do with Mystique in the X-men books. No matter how many truly evil things they do they still try and make them anti-heroes, and it just ruins the character.

I guess Stan Lee doesn't count since he says he wants to clear Doom's name As I mentioned earlier, this really started back in the 1960's when Stan still had a big influence on the comics. Again, I have to cite MSH #20, Astonishing Tales #8, and Fantastic Four #116. Roger Stern based his GN Triumph and Torment on Gerry Conway's story in Astonishing Tales #8 and it's often mentioned among the top original GNs of that era.

It's not like writers and fans are making this up. The basis is there for Doom to be considered as something more than a BwaHaHa villain.

[Zero Hunter]

But even then he is still a villain. With what they do now they have stripped everything that made Doom cool away so they can make him a good guy. He is a shell of the character he used to be.

[Crimz]

To see the cases of stupidity.



Valeria and Sue seem to admire violent villains a bit too much.

Sue doesn't admire violent villains and before you bring up Namor (like you usually do). Here's one of the last interactions she's had with him:






Every point you try to make with Sue is based of the decades old misogynistic writing of her. Start reading current runs and see how wrong you are. The fact that you question whether the FF are the good guys prove that you don't read much FF.



The fun thing about Valeria is that she is that in the future she likely would be neutral and only do things for sake of science. It's interesting to watch her develop, especially her interactions with Bentley,

[Iron Maiden]

To see the cases of stupidity.



Valeria and Sue seem to admire violent villains a bit too much.

Namor is not a straight up villain and was not created as such. He was part of the All Winners squad and fought Nazis.

[Iron Maiden]

You should be READING Marvel comics.

QFT. Doom hasn't tried to kill Reed for a couple of years now I'd like to think that writers follow up on the track that Doom's on now. But what has me a bit concerned is that in Marvel 2 in One, Victor maintains that Reed is dead.

[CaptCleghorn]

I guess Stan Lee doesn't count since he says he wants to clear Doom's name As I mentioned earlier, this really started back in the 1960's when Stan still had a big influence on the comics. Again, I have to cite MSH #20, Astonishing Tales #8, and Fantastic Four #116. Roger Stern based his GN Triumph and Torment on Gerry Conway's story in Astonishing Tales #8 and it's often mentioned among the top original GNs of that era.

It's not like writers and fans are making this up. The basis is there for Doom to be considered as something more than a BwaHaHa villain.

And that's what it comes down to. Marvel's heroes and villains introduced in the sixties had shades of grey as opposed to the black and white of the DC silver age characters. Victor Von Doom had a lighter shade of grey than most villains and most writers recognize that. The original question's been answered and I will admit there are discussions that could be had about the various shades of grey of the FF's supporting cast. I've had them with some FF readers who have posted in this thread. We don't agree, but have a basic understanding of the characters based on our actual reading of the stories.

[Abe]

...yes, I guess? It's on the writers, not on me. Maybe they have a negative bias against blonde female characters.

It stands out when one of the characters is supposed to be a super-genius.

You should target the writers then. It would make the discussion more interesting I guess.

[The Ray]

QFT. Doom hasn't tried to kill Reed for a couple of years now

That changes everything!

Last time Reed and Doom had a story together, Doom had changed reality and spent 8 years basically raping Reed's wife.

[CaptCleghorn]

That changes everything!

Last time Reed and Doom had a story together, Doom had changed reality and spent 8 years basically raping Reed's wife.

Would someone who actually READ Secret Wars like to provide an actual description of the story?

[Crimz]

That changes everything!

Last time Reed and Doom had a story together, Doom had changed reality and spent 8 years basically raping Reed's wife.

It wasn't Reed's wife. It has been said multiple times that it was an alternate reality Sue. The real Sue died along with the rest of the FF at the beginning of Secret Wars and was brought back at the end.

The reality Secret Wars Sue was from had her father leading the Fantastic Four and Reed didn't exist in that reality



Hickman even had said on record multiple times that it wasn't the Sue we knew.

Stop spreading misinformation.




P.S. Even Two-in-One confirms it as this is Ben's last memory of Sue just before they "died".

[Iron Maiden]

That changes everything!

Last time Reed and Doom had a story together, Doom had changed reality and spent 8 years basically raping Reed's wife.

Doom really didn't change reality... he saved what was left after the final incursion with the power boost from the Molecule Man. The woman that he married was from a different Earth of what was left of the Multiverse. Tom B. and Hickman both said this in several interviews on CBR. Sue died when the raft was ripped apart. Didn't you get up to issue #6 where she tells the story of her universe's Fantastic Four? It was lead by her father, Dr Franklin Storm

Hickman deliberately set things up so that there were fewer multiverse Reeds and fewer Victor Von Dooms. The Council of Reeds were all killed by the Mad Celestials, except for 3. 2 of them were merged into the new Supreme Intelligence and one died later when the Dreaming Celestials returned. Prior to that, the Council of Reeds were tracking down and lobotomizing all the Dooms they could find in the multiverse. Even the ones who were essentially harmless.

Battleworld Susan's Fantastic Four. Thanks for posting that page from Marvel 2 in One that also confirms it, CRIMZ