Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Michael Watkins]

It's very simple: Doom once kidnapped her brother and put the kid in Hell.

You know what Hell is? A realm of evil and suffering and nothing more. Literally the worse imaginable place. Putting someone there is the single worst thing you can do to anyone, and he did that to a child, her brother.

So, imagine someone doing something really, really awful to a child. So, what Doom did to her brother is WORSE than that.

I am already supposed to believe that the incredibly smart Valeria sees nothing wrong with being a violent despot. But am I also supposed to believe that the incredibly smart Valeria Richards sees nothing wrong with kidnapping and putting your brother in hell? Something that Doom used to be able to torture her whole family? She is so smart, so inteligent, that she sees some kind of noble act in submitting her family to torture and suffering that us, mere dumb mortals, cannot hope to see?

Am I supposed to see that as good writing?

It's incredibly stupid. Doom is a child killer who doesn't believe that he needs consent when he sleeps with his subjects.

[The Ray]

sigh

I know it wasn't the real Sue. The point is that the reason Doom stole Reed's life (his wife and even his kids) was just to antagonize Reed, even posthumously. Saying that Doom doesn't want to antagonize Reed for years is a lie trying to justify why Reed and Sue let their daughter under the care of a villain.

It's incredibly stupid. Doom is a child killer who doesn't believe that he needs consent when he sleeps with his subjects.

Something something Stan Lee something something shades of grey

It's okay to let your three years old daughter hang out with a rapist villain that has tortured your other child when he was a toddler if the guy makes the trains run in time.

[Michael Watkins]

And we see that Doom takes the job very seriously. Doom would never hurt Val. He'd hurt everyone else, but Val? She's safe.

Safe to be his magic eyes on the FF; during Unthinkable. He exploited her.

[Crimz]

sigh

I know it wasn't the real Sue. The point is that the reason Doom stole Reed's life (his wife and even his kids) was just to antagonize Reed, even posthumously. Saying that Doom doesn't want to antagonize Reed for years is a lie trying to justify why Reed and Sue let their daughter under the care of a villain.

You literally said that he raped Sue...

[Michael Watkins]

Namor is not a straight up villain and was not created as such. He was part of the All Winners squad and fought Nazis.

And flooded Wakanda

[Abe]

Would someone who actually READ Secret Wars like to provide an actual description of the story?

You mean an actual description of Hickman's Avengers, New Avengers and Secret Wars? (In addition to an actual description of his FF run...)

I won't. TBH I prefer to wait for an explanation of how stupid Hickman is as a writer according to the standards of the current decade.

Also of how stupid Jack Kirby and Stan Lee were according to those of the 60s.

[The Ray]

You literally said that he raped Sue...

Sorry.

He just manipulated the events in a way to spit in Reed's memory posthumously stealing his whole family consensually.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that Doom is a rapist. Is that Doom still dedicates all his life to antagonize Reed. He is his villain, not his friend or ally.

Letting your own daughter under the care of a violent despot is, in itself, a BAD thing. When said despot dedicates his life to make your own life worse it becomes even worse. And when said despot has a story of torturing your other child, it becomes EVEN worse.

Am I the crazy one for not find that "cute"?

[Iron Maiden]

And flooded Wakanda

Namor was under the influence of the Phoenix and all of the Phoenix Five became corrupted by its influence. IIRC, Emma used her influence on him and it implies she used her mental powers. And the fact that Namor has a weakness for blonds. When Cyclops alone was possessed by it, he killed Charles. I doubt he would have done so without it's influence.

[Abe]

Sorry.

He just manipulated the events in a way to spit in Reed's memory posthumously stealing his whole family consensually.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that Doom is a rapist. Is that Doom still dedicates all his life to antagonize Reed. He is his villain, not his friend or ally.

You know Reed is the kind of guy who saved Galactus' life so... (Byrne's stupidity)

[The Ray]

Namor was under the influence of the Phoenix and all of the Phoenix Five became corrupted by its influence. IIRC, Emma used her influence on him and it implies she used her mental powers. And the fact that Namor has a weakness for blonds. When Cyclops alone was possessed by it, he killed Charles. I doubt he would have done so without it's influence.

Namor continued his feud against Wakanda way after the Phoenix influence and, under Hickman's pen, made more attempts against Wakanda and said that his only regret was not having killed even more civilians.

Then there are all the times he attacked the surface world, attacked heroes, kidnapped people, allied himself with other villains for his gains...

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

You know Reed is the kind of guy who saved Galactus' life so... (Byrne's stupidity)

How many times have Galactus tortured his family, including his child, out of pettiness?

[Dum Dum Dugan]

Namor continued his feud against Wakanda way after the Phoenix influence and, under Hickman's pen, made more attempts against Wakanda and said that his only regret was not having killed even more civilians.

Then there are all the times he attacked the surface world, attacked heroes, kidnapped people, allied himself with other villains for his gains...

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.



How many times have Galactus tortured his family, including his child, out of pettiness?

Namor tried to make peace with Wakanda first, and they pretended to accept it before attacking Atlantis.

[Abe]

He let him eat a few planets because he thought that it was for the greater good on a cosmic scale. One could argue that Victor did good on a cosmic scale too. And Reed still feel a bit guilty for what happened to Doom.

More seriously I didn't read Waid's run so when I came back to comics I didn't mind Hickman's take on the family. It was fun, smart and definitively worth reading. I value that much more than the fantasy of continuity in comics.

[The Ray]

He let him eat a few planets because he thought that it was for the greater good on a cosmic scale. One could argue that Victor did good on a cosmic scale too. And Reed still feel a bit guilty for what happened to Doom.

More seriously I didn't read Waid's run so when I came back to comics I didn't mind Hickman's take on the family. It was fun, smart and definitively worth reading. I value that much more than the fantasy of continuity in comics.

Because Waid's run was the only time that Doom attacked Valeria's family, right?

Also...

One could argue that Victor did good on a cosmic scale too.

Doom supposedly being good on a cosmic scale isn't a good reason to let your daughter hanging out with a violent dictator.

What values are Reed and Sue expecting Valeria to learn under Doom? Do they actually believe that Doom is a good role model?

[Iron Maiden]

Namor tried to make peace with Wakanda first, and they pretended to accept it before attacking Atlantis.

I was just going to say at some point both Wakanda and Atlantis were locked into a cycle of destruction that didn't help either side.

[CaptCleghorn]

One could argue that Victor did good on a cosmic scale too.

Anyone who's read Secret Wars would know Doom kept pieces of multiple worlds from being destroyed with everything else and in effect, led to the recreation of the multiverse. But then, I DID read the story.