Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Oberon]

Previously The Ray said: This child is a villain-in-making.


... only when she is written that way. These are stories, not reality. In reality, 3 year olds don't "hang" with dictators.

We read this, to escape reality, therefore, we know this is not something real, and to get worked up over. If you don't like these stories, don't read them. There are plenty of us who will continue.

[The Ray]

Anyone who's read Secret Wars would know Doom kept pieces of multiple worlds from being destroyed with everything else and in effect, led to the recreation of the multiverse. But then, I DID read the story.

In 8 years, all Doom could achieve was a place that didn't make any sense always on the edge of destruction being ruled under his fist.

A few minutes with the same resources Doom had during 8 years, and Reed actually restored the multiverse.

[Oberon]

Hilarious. quoted for Truth!

[The Ray]

Previously The Ray said: This child is a villain-in-making.


... only when she is written that way. These are stories, not reality. In reality, 3 year olds don't "hang" with dictators.

We read this, to escape reality, therefore, we know this is not something real, and to get worked up over. If you don't like these stories, don't read them. There are plenty of us who will continue.

I'm not getting your reasoning here. We shouldn't ever judge fictional characters? We shouldn't ever be emotionally attached to them?

Didn't you say to me that you cried of happiness when you saw Namor and Sue making out? Seems contradictory to me.

[CaptCleghorn]

In 8 years, all Doom could achieve was a place that didn't make any sense always on the edge of destruction being ruled under his fist.

A few minutes with the same resources Doom had during 8 years, and Reed actually restored the multiverse.

See, this is what happens when you actually read the books and the posts. Your arguments make more sense.

Doom created his world where all Reed and the Avengers came up with was a lifeboat ship. Victor gets credit for saving the multiverse here. If he had Miles' hamburger, we would have had a new multiversal nirvana.

[Oberon]

He is just an antagonist. He contributes nothing worthy to any discussion. He wants to goad people into arguing over .... fictional characters, with decades of stories, that - yeah, certainly contradict previous/post characterizations. That's life.

Here you go The Ray, some free advice:

Comic books are Soap Operas for their readers and fans.

In Soaps, most main characters continually rotate between three roles.

1) Abuser

2) Abusee

3) Redemptionist.

So various characters can be bad guys. Then something happens and they have bad done to them. Some of them may decide to attempt redemption. Some may stay with the other two roles.

Within this context, there is no 'pattern' or certain movement. You can rotate between any of them in any order, or stay within just 1, or 2. But eventually the character will be written per all 3 of these patterns.

Any more astute reader or fan of FF, would quickly be able to tell us which and when certain characters changed their role to one of the others - and when they changed back - or to the other role.

[Oberon]

I.E; "It's a story! Enjoy . . . or go read something else."

[Iron Maiden]

Sorry.

He just manipulated the events in a way to spit in Reed's memory posthumously stealing his whole family consensually.

Tom Brevoort says different. Doom and Consort Susan made their own family.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that Doom is a rapist. Is that Doom still dedicates all his life to antagonize Reed. He is his villain, not his friend or ally.

Letting your own daughter under the care of a violent despot is, in itself, a BAD thing. When said despot dedicates his life to make your own life worse it becomes even worse. And when said despot has a story of torturing your other child, it becomes EVEN worse.

Am I the crazy one for not find that "cute"?

For better or worse, I think Reed and Sue know that there is a link there between Doom and Valeria. They may not understand it or like it but it's there nonetheless. I explained it all in an earlier post ...the link to Valeria von Doom from Claremont's Fantastic Four to the birth of Valeria Richards in FF #54 vol 3. When Sue came looking for Valeria in Latveria, her violent attack just makes things worse and Val was more afraid of her with Malice starting to take over than she was of Doom.

Plus there is an interesting thing happening with how much more we are learning about the college days when Reed, Ben and Victor were all at Empire State. Victor wanted them to leave him alone but Reed kept being a buttinsky. Then Reed messed around with the trophy Victor won in some contest (Marvel 2 in One) Fraction's revisiting of those days in a Fantastic Four flashback, he shows Ben going sneaking into Victor's dorm and sabotaging his device that later blows up. Reed just says it was Victor's own fault for not checking things out more thoroughly. So it getting to be more like 2 guys antagonizing one guy that didn't want to have anything to do with them because he thought they were idiots. There's more than enough blame to go around there. Would the world have been better off if Ben's tinkering lead to a fatal accident? Then he'd be guilty of manslaughter and more than likely go to prison. Maybe the Fantastic Four would never come to be.

[Crimz]

I.E; "It's a story! Enjoy . . . or go read something else."

Pretty much. I agree with this statement and that's the last I'll say about this topic.

[SuperiorIronman]

You mean the time he tried to force himself onto a girl and a hero introduced two issues prior comes in and effortlessly defeats Victor single handily with a weapon that doesn't burn nearly as hot as the Human Torch? The issue written by the guy who also wrote him stiffing Luke Cage 200$, and was able to be stopped by Luke Cage punching him? The Thing can't crack Victor's armor but Luke totally can?

I'm just saying their might be a disconnect with 60's and 70's portrayals that we might want to overlook. Not only does it not make sense when you stop and think about it, but they are written by people who either don't like the character or don't get the character.

Is Victor extremely petty? Yes. Valeria is also three and gets what she wants from the guy. She may be incredibly smart, but she is not emotionally mature enough to understand anything wrong with Victor, and she is growing up around him where people are tolerating him.

[Oberon]

While I am happy to know this (I too didn't get it, but that was ... years ago and someone made me understand... before NOW)

I always felt that the young children resembled their 616 counterparts too much. It might have been clearer who they really were/what, if they had some minor differences; darker hair, etc.

[The Ray]

He is just an antagonist. He contributes nothing worthy to any discussion. He wants to goad people into arguing over .... fictional characters, with decades of stories, that - yeah, certainly contradict previous/post characterizations. That's life.

Isn't arguing over fictional characters the sole purpose of this forum? If you think that fictional characters shouldn't be discussed, what are you doing here?

[The Ray]

She may be incredibly smart, but she is not emotionally mature enough to understand anything wrong with Victor, and she is growing up around him where people are tolerating him.

All the more reason to not let her grow up in a dictatorship led by a megalomaniac villain. If I can see that, why can't Reed, someone who should be smarter than I am?

[CaptCleghorn]

Is Victor extremely petty? Yes. Valeria is also three and gets what she wants from the guy. She may be incredibly smart, but she is not emotionally mature enough to understand anything wrong with Victor, and she is growing up around him where people are tolerating him.

This is an astute observation about Valeria's immaturity. I've said that Valeria should have more of a "Stewie Griffin" persona where she falls into what an actual three year old would be doing and not just being all adult acting 24/7. This would be a valid indicator of that.

[Abe]

Because Waid's run was the only time that Doom attacked Valeria's family, right?

Also...



Doom supposedly being good on a cosmic scale isn't a good reason to let your daughter hanging out with a violent dictator.

What values are Reed and Sue expecting Valeria to learn under Doom? Do they actually believe that Doom is a good role model?

1. I was thinking about putting Sue on fire in front of her daughter. For the rest he fought them quite a few time, but usually doesn't torture them.

2. Reed is a good son : he trusted own father. And his daughter - her future self to be more precise. And as you know I'm sure, Doom did his part to save the Earth and more probably even the multiverse from the mad Celestials. So it makes more sense than that.


That simple idea really ruined the book for you? As the Namor-Sue thing ruined the Lee/Kirby run for you Also?

Too bad : they are truly great comics you know.

About the role model and the values, they know that she is safe and that she is intelligent enough to build her own values. They know also that she is their daughter : they trust the education they gave her. And they are well aware that kids can also be a real pin in your ass.