What past mistakes by our heroes should survive in the newest DCU history?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I say you keep it all.

Hal going crazy. Bruce being an emotionally abusive control freak. Diana killing Max Lord. Clark killing all the people he's killed. Arthur and Mera's various break-ups and Arthur's various periods of broody depression.

You keep it all, and you make it work for you.

Fans aren't going to forget. Even if DC pretends that (for example) Zatanna never mind-wiped Batman, that's going to be in the back of our minds and it will impact and influence how we see Zee, no matter what DC says "really" happened. So instead of ignoring it, make it work for you. Mistakes and flaws are the fertilizer that great characters grow (and continue to grow) from.

I'd rather have Zee say "I hate that I did this to Bruce, and I have learned about myself and grown as a person and won't make that mistake again!" than say "Mindwipe Bruce? Why, I'd never do that! What would give you such a crazy notion?" and have DC tell me that various stories happened in a different way than they actually did.

If you're going to change your stories around and pretend they didn't happen the way you wrote them and you won't use those to build from, then what's the point of continuity in the first place?

I agree. 10char.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Aquaman benefited greatly from the New 52 reboot. His book has been fire pretty much consistently (there's been a few slips, like Bunn's run). I think a new storyline might be a good idea, but the book is still great.

I'd toss all of the 90s Aquaman stuff out and the killing of Aquaman's son from the 80s.

The first issue of Metal references the 90s Aquaman stuff, so....

Black Manta is the baddest and one of the best but I can't buy him continuing to be alive after MURDERING Arthur and Mera's baby, the Prince of Atlantis. He would be buried so deep in a trench somewhere in Atlantis that his very memory would cease to exist.

Not really. Joker was still walking around after killing Jason Todd.

[Jabare]

Jason Todd's death


Maybe Hal Jordan becoming Parallax, just to give DC their Darth Vader


People seem to like Identity Crisis for some reason so maybe that too.


I can think of tons of jerk Batman things, but that depends on the direction DC wants to take the character. If they want perfect Batman, or jerk Batman.

[skyvolt2000]

I've heard some complain that John Stewart's failure to prevent the destruction of Xanshi be retconned away, but isn't it better that it remain so it can be a valuable lesson to him?

What do you think?

It's only a lesson to him if he is consistently used, allowed to grow from that and have it DEFINE him.

It's an issue when you have characters that are not PETS or FAVORITES of the folks in charge.

All John did was blow up a planet?

So we ignore his being the first PUBLICLY known GL (at one time)

One of the few first black heores

One of the few married heroes and then widower

His vanishing family members?

THe barley touched military background.

Yet we keep seeing that planet show up and him being babysitter for the Corps.

That carton did MORE with him in 4 seasons than all 40+ years in DC.

Then we wonder why folks view him as boring.

[Flash Gordon]

The first issue of Metal references the 90s Aquaman stuff, so....



Not really. Joker was still walking around after killing Jason Todd.

Batman is a very different character from Aquaman...

Regardless though, that's not in continuity and I hope it stays that way.

[Thor-Ul]

Batman coming with secret plans against the justice League. Twice. I mean . TWICE.

[Agent Z]

Exactly why I was referring to Aquaman's aesthetic choices in the 90s and his affairs.

Both are mistakes by the hero.

Um, no you weren't. You talked about the death of Arthur's son which isn't a mistake on Arthur's part and wasn't even done in the 90s. Also, there was no affair. He and Mera had split up.

The aestheitic choices? The beard and the hair sure aren't seen as mistakes and the hook hand wasn't a choice he had in making.

None of these are mistakes by Aquaman. They're story choices made by the writers. You may not like them but they aren't Aquaman's fault.

I'd also point out the 90s run is the reason there even is still an Aquaman book to this day.

[Agent Z]

Batman coming with secret plans against the justice League. Twice. I mean . TWICE.

As I said in an old thread

Thing is, if Bruce was all about preparing for the League turning on the world, he went about it the wrong way. No one but Bruce knew about these plans until Ra's used them on the League. Bruce keeping his plans a secret not only means the League is screwed when something like that happens, but that he acts unilaterally on when these plans should be put into effect. Not to mention, what would have happened if Bruce died and took the knowledge of these plans with him?

What Bruce should have done was have it so every police officer was equipped with a Kryptonite gun or vibra-bullet. He'd have sold the anti Wonder Woman nanites and anti- Aquaman gas for military use. He'd have made sure every single Green Lantern underwent whatever procedure he put on Kyle.

In short, yes Bruce was right that contingencies against the League needed to be taken. He was wrong in trying to police them himself.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Batman is a very different character from Aquaman...

Regardless though, that's not in continuity and I hope it stays that way.

What's not in continuity? Jason Todd's death? Uh, it very much is.

Or are you talking about the Peter David Aquaman stuff? Because, again, they just referenced it in Metal.

[Agent Z]

Max Lord turning evil.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Max Lord turning evil.

I agree in regards to Judd Winnick's idea that he was always evil, which unfortunately Rebirth doubled-down on. In fact, nothing Winnick did with the JLI characters should stick around. He'd retroactively messed with all of them in ways that only made them worse.

However, I think Max's heel turn is too integral to so many major events that I don't see how it can be avoided, unless you're planning on some major retconning and Parallax-style reveals to explain what happened to him.

Or do you think that whatever history the DCU has post time shenanigans will not include Infinite Crisis, Brightest Day or Justice League vs. Suicide Squad?

[Agent Z]

I agree in regards to Judd Winnick's idea that he was always evil, which unfortunately Rebirth doubled-down on. In fact, nothing Winnick did with the JLI characters should stick around. He'd retroactively messed with all of them in ways that only made them worse.

However, I think Max's heel turn is too integral to so many major events that I don't see how it can be avoided, unless you're planning on some major retconning and Parallax-style reveals to explain what happened to him.

Or do you think that whatever history the DCU has post time shenanigans will not include Infinite Crisis, Brightest Day or Justice League vs. Suicide Squad?

All I know is I don't want it in continuity. I'm not sure how I'd get rid of it but I don't see it as integral. You could, for instance, replace Max with Veronica Cale in the lead up to Infinite Crisis and nothing of value would be lost.

[dietrich]

The rule should be, don't do anything to any other hero that you wouldn't do to Batman.

I like this a lot

[Bored at 3:00AM]

All I know is I don't want it in continuity. I'm not sure how I'd get rid of it but I don't see it as integral. You could, for instance, replace Max with Veronica Cale in the lead up to Infinite Crisis and nothing of value would be lost.

Eh, that's a pretty big retcon. I'd rather they figure out a way to explain Max's heel turn without resorting to outright character swapping. It didn't work with Wonder Woman being swapped out for Black Canary in the JLA or Cyborg/J'Onn J'Onzz either. How well do you think redeeming Hal Jordan would have gone over if Johns had just said, that wasn't Hal during Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour, it was The Ray! You are all just remembering it wrong!

My general rule of thumb with retcons is you can't alter the original stories too much or it breaks the reality. You can revise them, you can re-contextualize them, but completely ignoring them only works for stories that are isolated from the larger universe, like Punisher being an angel fighting demons. Granted, your mileage may vary.

Given Max's relationship with Metron's rogue computer, perhaps he was under its control once again. Maybe he was replaced by the Max Lord of the Wildstorm Earth. There are a bunch of different options to restore Max to the unscrupulous huckster with the heart of gold we knew and loved that don't involve trying to Jedi Mind Trick the comic reader.

I don't think we can just sweep Max being a villain under the carpet and hope nobody remembers. They need to address it, fix the problem, and proceed from there.