Bryan Hill taking over Detective Comics

[Godlike13]

Oh did they change the factor that determines success? It's no longer just floppy?

Anyway, that only happened because some guy decided they need a new direction by erasing what they had and keeping them away for so long they become a different person and new fans don't recognize them.

However it did happen, so let's try to solve it based on current condition. Let's look at the title they star in, specifically the issues where they are the main focus, and see if they sell high enough. That should be a good enough indicator to retry their book or not.

They sell more then just floppies. And DC looks at far more data then we do, we don't know something they don't.

[Armor of God]

Its just a 5 issue run anyway guys, no need to overanalyze.

[dietrich]

(I love Robin Son of Batman, but it sold very poorly. Undeservedly, because that art was incredibly rich and lovely, but no. Not selling well at all.)

It's never good trying to give false info on a public forum because others may have access to the facts.
These are the figures for batfamily books from that time.

- Robin Son Of Batman:

June: 64,095 / July: 44,232 / August: 38,413/ September: 38,162/ October: 35,619/ November: 35,633/ December: 34,815/ January: 31,220/ February: 30,125/ March: 32,962/ April: 26,366/ May: 22,428/ June: 21,658

- Batman Beyond:

June: 53,774 / July: 35,000 / August: 30,806/ September: 31,141/ October: 29,409/ November: 27,778/ December: 21,946/ January: 20,342/ February: 19,449/ March: 21,578/ April: 18,061/ May: 18,133/ June:13,025

- We Are Robin:

June: 51,943 / July: 31,209 / August: 26,830/ September: 22,893/ October: 21,243/ November: 19,210/ December: 28,181/ January: 12,086/ February: 21,323/ March: 16,412/ April: 17,655/ May: 14,204/ June:---

- Red Hood/Arsenal:

June: 40,071 / July: 26,829 / August: 23,841/ September: 22,113/ October: 21,025/ November: 19,857/ December: 25,789/ January: 22,900/ February: 22,341/ March: 17,707/ April: 19,711/ May: 16,402/ June: 16,389

- Batgirl:

June: 33,220 / July: 33,168 / August: 32,079/ September: 30,654/ October: 29,276/ November: --- / December: 27,591/ January: 26,905/ February: 25,625/ March: 24,730/ April: 34,632/23,280/ May: 26,492/ June:---

- Gotham Academy:

June: 26,594 / July: 22,359 / August: 18,048/ September: 17,292/ October: 16,560/ November: --- / December: 15,865/22,947/ January: 15,023/ February: 14,334/ March: 13,363/ April: 12,743/ May: 12,410/ June:---

- Grayson:

June: 39,610 / July: 33,990 / August: 36,538/ September: 32,284/ October: 32,147/ November: 31,831 / December: 35,765/ January: 30,420/ February: 30,257/ March: 33,914/ April: 27,378/ May: 23,762/ June: 20,741 (Annual)

- Catwoman:

June: 27,034 / July: 21,385 / August: 26,451/ September: 21,507/ October: 20,154/ November: 21,661 / December: 15,038/ January: 14,408/ February: 13,659/ March: 14,260/ April: 13,150/ May: 16,146June:---


As you can see Robin Son of Batman had very healthy sales better than the Tim's BB.

The Red Robin solo also didn't perform better than RSOB.

[MajorHoy]

The really annoying part is when they hold onto really bad editorial decisions like Babs as the ONLY Batgirl, when both Steph and Cass both sustained much stronger sales longer than Babs has.

It made sense to go with just Barbara as the only Batgirl at the start of the New52 because DC at that point was having an extremely compressed timeline (roughly five years) and Barbara was definitely the better known Batgirl through media exposure (like in Batman: The Animated Series and the continuous reruns of the live-action Batman series starring Adam West as Batman).
And it's sort of pointless to argue that "both Steph and Cass both sustained much stronger sales longer than Babs has" because that was then, and Barbara never had her own sustained solo-run as Batgirl in her own solo title in the past; she always had back-up features or co-features when she wasn't just a guest-star in somebody else's feature.
(To be fair, when it came to DC's decision to keep all the male Robins in that five-year span, they should have dropped at least Tim since they didn't really know what to do with him anyway. As it was, he got shafted by the deal.)

[millernumber1]

That is a lie. If it's numbers were poor then RR was abysmal.

I apologize. I was confusing Robin Son of Batman's numbers with We Are Robin and the overall very poor performance of many of the DC You titles. Damian holding at 21k until the end is quite respectable, especially given the bait and switch writer/artist game they played with it.

But I don't understand your claim about Red Robin - the final issue of Red Robin, #26, sold almost 27k. Maybe you're mad at my mistake, but...why lie when accusing others of lying?

It's never good trying to give false info on a public forum because others may have access to the facts.
These are the figures for batfamily books from that time.

- Robin Son Of Batman:

June: 64,095 / July: 44,232 / August: 38,413/ September: 38,162/ October: 35,619/ November: 35,633/ December: 34,815/ January: 31,220/ February: 30,125/ March: 32,962/ April: 26,366/ May: 22,428/ June: 21,658

- Batman Beyond:

June: 53,774 / July: 35,000 / August: 30,806/ September: 31,141/ October: 29,409/ November: 27,778/ December: 21,946/ January: 20,342/ February: 19,449/ March: 21,578/ April: 18,061/ May: 18,133/ June:13,025

- We Are Robin:

June: 51,943 / July: 31,209 / August: 26,830/ September: 22,893/ October: 21,243/ November: 19,210/ December: 28,181/ January: 12,086/ February: 21,323/ March: 16,412/ April: 17,655/ May: 14,204/ June:---

As you can see Robin Son of Batman had very healthy sales better than the Tim's BB.

The Red Robin solo also didn't perform better than RSOB.

My apologies to you as well. It wasn't intentionally false - as I say above, I remember the sales for a lot of DC You titles being really, really bad, especially We Are Robin, and confused that in my head without checking.

I don't think that comparing Batman Beyond to Robin Son of Batman is a good measure of Tim vs. Damian's sales, because Batman Beyond (for all DC's claims that it's the "official future of the DCU" at the time) is clearly an AU, which never sells as well, and that version of Tim is pretty much Tim in name only.

Again...why are you claiming that Red Robin did the same or worse as Robin Son of Batman? Again, I made a mistake, but why make the same mistake about a different title?

[millernumber1]

It made sense to go with just Barbara as the only Batgirl at the start of the New52 because DC at that point was having an extremely compressed timeline (roughly five years) and Barbara was definitely the better known Batgirl through media exposure (like in Batman: The Animated Series and the continuous reruns of the live-action Batman series starring Adam West as Batman).
And it's sort of pointless to argue that "both Steph and Cass both sustained much stronger sales longer than Babs has" because that was then, and Barbara never had her own sustained solo-run as Batgirl in her own solo title in the past; she always had back-up features or co-features when she wasn't just a guest-star in somebody else's feature.
(To be fair, when it came to DC's decision to keep all the male Robins in that five-year span, they should have dropped at least Tim since they didn't really know what to do with him anyway. As it was, he got shafted by the deal.)

It makes ZERO sense to go with just Babs when you've kept ALL FOUR male Robins.

It makes perfect sense to me to compare Babs's current sales with Steph and Cass's previous sales. Yes, the market is different, but if Babs had a hypothetical titles from the 60s to the 80s, when she could have had a solo, the market would have been different then as well. We're comparing Red Robin to Robin Son of Batman, after all.

I actually don't think the idea of making Tim the Teen Titans Robin was a bad one with the n52. The problem was giving it to Lobdell and Pfeiffer for the whole time.

[MajorHoy]

It makes ZERO sense to go with just Babs when you've kept ALL FOUR male Robins.

And as I pointed out, DC shouldn't have done that.
Tim should have been dropped since at the start of the New52 they pretty much erased his reason for being in the first place.
The others could have stayed, even with the +/-five-year span because Dick could have been Robin for a year or two before becoming Nightwing; Jason could have been killed during his first year as Robin; then Damian could have recently come into the picture. All that could easily be encompassed in a 4-5 year span, and it would have made Jason's replacing Dick even more logical in the public eye since there wouldn't have been as much of an age-gap between the two.

[millernumber1]

And as I pointed out, DC shouldn't have done that.
Tim should have been dropped since at the start of the New52 they pretty much erased his reason for being in the first place.
The others could have stayed, even with the +/-five-year span because Dick could have been Robin for a year or two before becoming Nightwing; Jason could have been killed during his first year as Robin; then Damian could have recently come into the picture. All that could easily be encompassed in a 4-5 year span, and it would have made Jason's replacing Dick even more logical in the public eye since there wouldn't have been as much of an age-gap between the two.

I didn't really have a problem with keeping all four Robins (though obviously, I'm mad that they did that but didn't keep Steph - and yes, I'm well aware that my love for Steph as Robin is weird) - it's only the deletion of the other two Batgirls, especially since they kept the Killing Joke and Babs's time away from the cowl. DC's compressed the timeline so many times. And I think Damian's origin really requires some kind of Robin when he shows up. But maybe I'm wrong. With the revelations in Deathstroke #32, though, I think we might be revisiting, at least tangentially, Damian's taking the mantle.

[Aahz]

The really annoying part is when they hold onto really bad editorial decisions like Babs as the ONLY Batgirl, when both Steph and Cass both sustained much stronger sales longer than Babs has. Or a lack of a Tim series, when he's had the most successful solo Robin series. (I love Robin Son of Batman, but it sold very poorly. Undeservedly, because that art was incredibly rich and lovely, but no. Not selling well at all.)

Depends if you compare Stephs run to the current Batgirl run, or to Barbaras complete run since the start of the new 52 (Barbaras first new 52 run sold still 36,666 copies when it hit issue #24).

And honestly a major reason why Barbara's current sales sales are that poor is the writing and the direction of the book. During the first years of the new 52 her sales numbers were allways pretty close to Nightwings. And is just since Rebirth that her sales got that low.

Another thing that you have to keep in mind, that besides the character also the mantle can play a role when it comes to sales. Sam Wilson sold iirc quite good when he was Captain America, but not when he went back to Falcon.

[MajorHoy]

I didn't really have a problem with keeping all four Robins (though obviously, I'm mad that they did that but didn't keep Steph - and yes, I'm well aware that my love for Steph as Robin is weird) - it's only the deletion of the other two Batgirls, especially since they kept the Killing Joke and Babs's time away from the cowl. DC's compressed the timeline so many times. And I think Damian's origin really requires some kind of Robin when he shows up. But maybe I'm wrong. With the revelations in Deathstroke #32, though, I think we might be revisiting, at least tangentially, Damian's taking the mantle.

Don't even get me started on DC still keeping TKJ as canon!

One other problem with Babs, courtesy of the New52: the decision to extremely de-age in a way that was much more noticeable than with just about any other character! Babs use to be significantly older than Dick in the very beginning (pre-CoIE), but as time went on, that age-difference had apparently been reduced a bit. In the New52, however, she seemed to have been de-aged to the point where she's more like Dick's age rather than a few years older than him.

[millernumber1]

Depends if you compare Stephs run to the current Batgirl run, or to Barbaras complete run since the start of the new 52 (Barbaras first new 52 run sold still 36,666 copies when it hit issue #24).

And honestly a major reason why Barbara's current sales sales are that poor is the writing and the direction of the book. During the first years of the new 52 her sales numbers were allways pretty close to Nightwings. And is just since Rebirth that her sales got that low.

Another thing that you have to keep in mind, that besides the character also the mantle can play a role when it comes to sales. Sam Wilson sold iirc quite good when he was Captain America, but not when he went back to Falcon.

You have a solid point with Babs's n52 run. Though Simone was still A-list talent at that point (I think she's been gone from any serious titles for too long at this point, though we'll have to see what the numbers for Domino and Plastic Man are). I was comparing Steph's run to the current run (and much as it pains me, because I liked the series, the Batgirl and the Birds of Prey run). But can't the writing and direction argument be applied to a potential Steph or Cass title as well as Babs? Especially since the mantle is a big part of the sales.

[millernumber1]

Don't even get me started on DC still keeping TKJ as canon!

One other problem with Babs, courtesy of the New52: the decision to extremely de-age in a way that was much more noticeable than with just about any other character! Babs use to be significantly older than Dick in the very beginning (pre-CoIE), but as time went on, that age-difference had apparently been reduced a bit. In the New52, however, she seemed to have been de-aged to the point where she's more like Dick's age rather than a few years older than him.

It is infuriating!

The de-aging is also really frustrating - though I don't think it was official until Burnside. I think Simone still wanted Babs a bit older.

The last official ages I remember are that Dick was 21 (based on Batman and Robin Eternal) and Babs is also 21 (based on her dating app profile in Burnside).

[MajorHoy]

The last official ages I remember are that Dick was 21 (based on Batman and Robin Eternal) and Babs is also 21 (based on her dating app profile in Burnside).

And back when Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was first introduced, Dick was still in high school while Barbara was a professional librarian (which would have meant college graduate with a masters degree).

[millernumber1]

And back when Barbara Gordon as Batgirl was first introduced, Dick was still in high school while Barbara was a professional librarian (which would have meant college graduate with a masters degree).

Even Batgirl Year One seems to have about 4 years between them.

[Aahz]

I was comparing Steph's run to the current run (and much as it pains me, because I liked the series, the Batgirl and the Birds of Prey run). But can't the writing and direction argument be applied to a potential Steph or Cass title as well as Babs? Especially since the mantle is a big part of the sales.

I think Cass and Staph runs were quite well written, as was the Simone new 52 Run.
The current Batgirl run is quite cringy and Batgirl and the Birds of Prey is imo nowhere near the level of the original Run.

Btw. I think the exceptions you have on a book based on the previous runs might also be a reason for the low sales. And I don't think that Barbara's current books match these.