Tom King's Batman or Scott Snyder's Batman

[Caivu]

I'm going to bet that anyone who thinks Snyder>King also hated The Last Jedi but praises Solo.

I'd bet that the crossover of those opinions is very high.

Put me down as preferring Snyder but not liking either of them and really liking TLJ, just as a data point.

[BatmanJones]

I like the poetic effect of the dialogue. It isn't remotely realistic, but it has a certain effect I appreciate.

Most people here seem to judge it as something that's lacking in his writing when it's clearly intended to have a poetic, lyrical effect. If people don't like that, that's fair. But to grade his dialogue according to what readers wish they were reading instead of what he's actually going for is a mistake. If you don't like the poetic, lyrical dialogue that's fine. What's weird is the way people complain that an apple isn't an orange. King isn't trying to make an orange, in this analogy. I think all writers and artists should be judged two ways: first on how well they accomplish what they set out to do and second how a reader feels about what a writer set out to do.

So many complaints about King conflate the second issue with the first and wind up calling his Batman a "retard" (ugly word) with complete disregard for what he's trying to do.

If you don't like what he's trying to do, fine. If you're upset that he's bad at a thing he isn't even attempting, that's a foul on the part of those that criticize based on that without acknowledging he's trying something different.

One of the things I love about King's Batman is how many different approaches he takes to the title. You may not like all of them (or any of them) but it should be acknowledged that what he's attempting is not classic superhero comics. His approach to Batman is intrepid and that's left out of so many of the criticisms of his take on Batman. You can say it's intrepid but in a bad way and you hate it but to disregard the fact that it's intrepid (or avant-garde) is akin to judging a great baseball player for not playing football.

[SiegePerilous02]

Had King written a human Batman as claimed Bruce would have died when he allowed Bane the first free hit on his face. It certainly should have broken all his teeth or his jaw altogether. All the other hits should have liquified his body. Batman can beat a venom less Bane h2h and that too with difficulty. The fight was BS.

Um, why? It's not as if the numerous times he's been hit by a Venon-infused Bane have resulted in death before. Remember the beating he took in Knightfull pre-back breaking that he survived and recovered from. Why on Earth do you think Bane is capable of killing Batman in one hit when he's never displayed that ability before? This strikes me as just looking real hard for something to complain about.

He lifted Grundy with one hand and slammed him in to the ground and no this is also BS. By this logic Batman can beat Darkseid.

Grundy did not just stop and stand still while Batman effortlessly picked him up with one hand. He was already running and Batman used his momentum in a judo throw that knocked him to the ground. Grundy's own speed and strength knocked him out. Is that still kind of ridiculous? Absolutely, but we are reading a comic about a billionaire dressed as a crime fighting Dracula judo throwing a Zombie Hulk created by a magical murder swamp water. And these characters were introduced back in the 1940s in stories intended for children. So who cares?

He managed to hurt the Gotham guy while the other JL members couldn't and lasted longer to boot.

Not really, he used a couple surprise attacks and threw the plane at him, none of which deterred him for very long. The fact that he felt he needed to call the League at all indicates he was fresh out of ideas, and he was totally a dead man had Gotham Girl not showed up.

A whistle cannot down Superman no matter who mind controls him. The implications behind this feat are preposterous to even comprehend. What's the point of having contigency plans for an evil/mind controlled Superman? Just whistle him to death.

Not everyone who mind controls Superman actually possesses him and acts through him the way Ivy seemed to, she spoke through everyone. They were extensions of her. She was using his super hearing to listen in on something and wasn't prepared for the retaliation. Max Lord or Dr. Psycho controlling him would not result in something like that. It's the same with the meltdown people had over the Flashes. Superhero powers are nebulous and as the plot demands all the time, and if this were the speedsters in their right mind I would be pissed as well, but it as Ivy puppeting them around and not knowing what she was doing while also trying not to hurt Selina and Bruce. That's sufficient enough for a superhero story.

Those same demons Diana was fighting. Point is why was Batman even neccessary?

Because his name is on the cover of the magazine, and King wanted to do a story with Wonder Woman. That's all the justification needed, that's all the justification any superhero story needs. And it's been a while since I read these in the store, but wasn't Diana without her powers in this realm? And even if she wasn't, who says all these demons are equally strong? I don't need to see their stats and abilities broken down.

It took him five days because he was rescuing civilians. Deathstroke and Deadshot are two of the most toughest matchups for Batman in direct encounters. Yet King's version just stomped both outright.

Five days after they'd worn each other out, not the first day when they were fresh. And Slade's a tough matchup for Bruce, but he's overhyped in general. There's a lot of questionable things going on with their inclusion in the story (Slade especially), but Batman taking them out in this instance isn't one of them.

Alfred, Gordon and Duke absolutely do not appear on a regular basis AT ALL. They were present in the first arc but after Catwoman's introduction they have gradually vanished altogether. In the last year Duke has appeared twice the latter just a single page, Gordon and Alfred about 6 issues maybe and in most of them they're just wallpaper. We're talking about 23 issues and an annual.

Alfred and Gordon were in the third arc, and have popped up in one off issues like the Ace story (which Alfred was arguably the protagonist of) and the Swamp Thing issue.

But ultimately....why can't King make Selina the co-lead? It's not as if she's some brand new creation pushing out everyone else, she's been there practically since the beginning. It's one run in a sea of runs for this character and his world. People are upset that Alfred and Gordon get less screentime, and the Bat-Brats are making rare appearances? it's not as if there isn't a fuckton of books in the back catalog for that and no doubt in the future that will feature them more. This is no different than Rucka making Sasha the co-lead of his run and Morrison focusing mainly on Bruce, Dick, Damian and Alfred while everyone else popped in and out sporadically.

[Chubistian]

Doesn’t Grundy have different power levels with each resurrection? I don’t know if it’s an official explanation, but one day he can be beaten by Batman (Long Halloween, Dark Victory, I Am Gotham) or Green Arrow (Archer’s Quest) and next day he can go toe to toe with Superman or Green Lantern

[JasonTodd428]

Um, why? It's not as if the numerous times he's been hit by a Venon-infused Bane have resulted in death before. Remember the beating he took in Knightfull pre-back breaking that he survived and recovered from. Why on Earth do you think Bane is capable of killing Batman in one hit when he's never displayed that ability before? This strikes me as just looking real hard for something to complain about.



Grundy did not just stop and stand still while Batman effortlessly picked him up with one hand. He was already running and Batman used his momentum in a judo throw that knocked him to the ground. Grundy's own speed and strength knocked him out. Is that still kind of ridiculous? Absolutely, but we are reading a comic about a billionaire dressed as a crime fighting Dracula judo throwing a Zombie Hulk created by a magical murder swamp water. And these characters were introduced back in the 1940s in stories intended for children. So who cares?



Not really, he used a couple surprise attacks and threw the plane at him, none of which deterred him for very long. The fact that he felt he needed to call the League at all indicates he was fresh out of ideas, and he was totally a dead man had Gotham Girl not showed up.



Not everyone who mind controls Superman actually possesses him and acts through him the way Ivy seemed to, she spoke through everyone. They were extensions of her. She was using his super hearing to listen in on something and wasn't prepared for the retaliation. Max Lord or Dr. Psycho controlling him would not result in something like that. It's the same with the meltdown people had over the Flashes. Superhero powers are nebulous and as the plot demands all the time, and if this were the speedsters in their right mind I would be pissed as well, but it as Ivy puppeting them around and not knowing what she was doing while also trying not to hurt Selina and Bruce. That's sufficient enough for a superhero story.



Because his name is on the cover of the magazine, and King wanted to do a story with Wonder Woman. That's all the justification needed, that's all the justification any superhero story needs. And it's been a while since I read these in the store, but wasn't Diana without her powers in this realm? And even if she wasn't, who says all these demons are equally strong? I don't need to see their stats and abilities broken down.



Five days after they'd worn each other out, not the first day when they were fresh. And Slade's a tough matchup for Bruce, but he's overhyped in general. There's a lot of questionable things going on with their inclusion in the story (Slade especially), but Batman taking them out in this instance isn't one of them.



Alfred and Gordon were in the third arc, and have popped up in one off issues like the Ace story (which Alfred was arguably the protagonist of) and the Swamp Thing issue.

But ultimately....why can't King make Selina the co-lead? It's not as if she's some brand new creation pushing out everyone else, she's been there practically since the beginning. It's one run in a sea of runs for this character and his world. People are upset that Alfred and Gordon get less screentime, and the Bat-Brats are making rare appearances? it's not as if there isn't a fuckton of books in the back catalog for that and no doubt in the future that will feature them more. This is no different than Rucka making Sasha the co-lead of his run and Morrison focusing mainly on Bruce, Dick, Damian and Alfred while everyone else popped in and out sporadically.

Pretty much every complaint you've responded to can also be leveled at various writers who have handled Batman over the years and really no matter how well written they might be some feats really are still a tad unbelievable anyway if you try looking at them through the lens of reality. Superman can fly but really that's not terribly realistic either.

[JasonTodd428]

Doesn’t Grundy have different power levels with each resurrection? I don’t know if it’s an official explanation, but one day he can be beaten by Batman (Long Halloween, Dark Victory, I Am Gotham) or Green Arrow (Archer’s Quest) and next day he can go toe to toe with Superman or Green Lantern

I've already always felt that Grundy does have different power levels with each resurrection mainly because writers seem to always write him that way. Not sure if it's intentional or not though. In any case his power set and levels have never been all that firmly established from what little I can remember. He simply pops up far to infrequently for them too have been been so in my opinion.

[Armor of God]

Doesn’t Grundy have different power levels with each resurrection? I don’t know if it’s an official explanation, but one day he can be beaten by Batman (Long Halloween, Dark Victory, I Am Gotham) or Green Arrow (Archer’s Quest) and next day he can go toe to toe with Superman or Green Lantern

Only problem here is that Grundy was shown fighting the Gotham siblings and winning before Batman stepped in to stomp him.

[Armor of God]

Um, why? It's not as if the numerous times he's been hit by a Venon-infused Bane have resulted in death before. Remember the beating he took in Knightfull pre-back breaking that he survived and recovered from. Why on Earth do you think Bane is capable of killing Batman in one hit when he's never displayed that ability before? This strikes me as just looking real hard for something to complain about.

Bane was going easy on him in Knightfall, other encounters with venom Bane only occurred in the New 52 era and onwards. Like in The Dark Knight and Batman/TMNT 2 where it was made clear that Batman was out of his league. Even when Batman won like in Batwoman he needed a plot device. Tomasi and now King literally had Batman fight h2h. If Batman can fight 5-8 ton characters then any claim of him being human goes away. Christopher Priest even stated that he found the this whole notion silly, its why he didn't put Batman against Deathstroke because he believes the latter can kill Bruce with one blow if he wants. Batman can beat them yes but Batman has no business fighting characters multiple times physically superior to him in an all out brawl. Its Batgod non sense at its finest, worse its just lazy and bad writing.

Grundy did not just stop and stand still while Batman effortlessly picked him up with one hand. He was already running and Batman used his momentum in a judo throw that knocked him to the ground. Grundy's own speed and strength knocked him out. Is that still kind of ridiculous? Absolutely, but we are reading a comic about a billionaire dressed as a crime fighting Dracula judo throwing a Zombie Hulk created by a magical murder swamp water. And these characters were introduced back in the 1940s in stories intended for children. So who cares?

Um no, by this logic if Superman flies towards Batman then Bruce can knock him down using judo, ridiculous. The level of durability these characters posses makes such moves rather pointless. Imagine Darkseid trying to punch Batman only for Batman to use some martial arts move to redirect Darkseid's punch back at his face and knocking him unconscious as a consequence. I guarantee you would call out the writer on Batgod wankery should that ever happen. Besides it wasn't even the throw that finished Grundy, it was Batman stomping on his neck and causing him visible agony. So how do you explain that? and if Grundy was running with enough velocity and force that said force was strong enough to off set his durability then he should have run right over Batman turning him in to Batpaste. Without superhuman physicals this feat does not work. I care because I see King fans falsely proclaim how Batman under other writers is so Godly.

Not really, he used a couple surprise attacks and threw the plane at him, none of which deterred him for very long. The fact that he felt he needed to call the League at all indicates he was fresh out of ideas, and he was totally a dead man had Gotham Girl not showed up.

Still doesn't change the fact that Batman lasted longest and made him bleed as well, while the rest of the League was manhandled. At the end Batman looked the best against Tom King's own character.

Not everyone who mind controls Superman actually possesses him and acts through him the way Ivy seemed to, she spoke through everyone. They were extensions of her. She was using his super hearing to listen in on something and wasn't prepared for the retaliation. Max Lord or Dr. Psycho controlling him would not result in something like that. It's the same with the meltdown people had over the Flashes. Superhero powers are nebulous and as the plot demands all the time, and if this were the speedsters in their right mind I would be pissed as well, but it as Ivy puppeting them around and not knowing what she was doing while also trying not to hurt Selina and Bruce. That's sufficient enough for a superhero story.

And if King bothered to have Batman use some device that specifically targets and amplifies the effects of frequency that causes Superman extreme pain then said feat would have made sense. But you once again you choose to ignore Superman's durability, even if Batman was capable of exploiting this then it doesn't mean that Superman should shriek in extreme pain and then collapse. As a diversion or irritant, fine even though thats stretching it as well, but as a finisher? please. This is another lazy storytelling example that coasts by on Batman supposedly being "that" good. Its BatGod non sense at its finest, I'll take Snyder's mech suit over this type of non sense any day.

Because his name is on the cover of the magazine, and King wanted to do a story with Wonder Woman. That's all the justification needed, that's all the justification any superhero story needs. And it's been a while since I read these in the store, but wasn't Diana without her powers in this realm? And even if she wasn't, who says all these demons are equally strong? I don't need to see their stats and abilities broken down.

So it doesn't strike you as Batgod wankery that King created circumstances where Batman and Wonder Woman are both EQUALLY powerful? I'll leave it at that.

Five days after they'd worn each other out, not the first day when they were fresh. And Slade's a tough matchup for Bruce, but he's overhyped in general. There's a lot of questionable things going on with their inclusion in the story (Slade especially), but Batman taking them out in this instance isn't one of them.

We never saw any of this, they fired a few bullets that managed to hit civilians lol, so much for master marksmen, they had no visible signs of damage because their bullets were hitting fodder instead of each other. They were no more worn out than Batman was.

Alfred and Gordon were in the third arc, and have popped up in one off issues like the Ace story (which Alfred was arguably the protagonist of) and the Swamp Thing issue.

But ultimately....why can't King make Selina the co-lead? It's not as if she's some brand new creation pushing out everyone else, she's been there practically since the beginning. It's one run in a sea of runs for this character and his world. People are upset that Alfred and Gordon get less screentime, and the Bat-Brats are making rare appearances? it's not as if there isn't a fuckton of books in the back catalog for that and no doubt in the future that will feature them more. This is no different than Rucka making Sasha the co-lead of his run and Morrison focusing mainly on Bruce, Dick, Damian and Alfred while everyone else popped in and out sporadically.

I already said that they gradually appeared less and less, they were in I am Gotham, then virtually non existent all the way to I am Bane, then Gordon showed up in the Swamp Thing issue then a few appearances in WOJAR and after that the occasional cameo status. king's run is now at 47 issues, 2 annuals and 2 one shots, he has no excuse beyond complete unwillingness and laziness.

Where did I say that he cant make Selina the co lead? but maybe he should try to accommodate the basic supporting cast that Batman is known for, you know Alfred, Robin, Gordon etc instead if ignoring them for multiple issues and then giving them a single page and then repeating the process.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bane was going easy on him in Knightfall

Certainly didn't look like it, what with the merciless beating and back breaking and all.

other encounters with venom Bane only occurred in the New 52 era and onwards. Like in The Dark Knight and Batman/TMNT 2 where it was made clear that Batman was out of his league.

Again, the powers of these characters are nebulous and "as the plot demands," Bane as he was originally conceived using Venom was not depicted as something Batman would be out of his league against had circumstances not lead to him being emotionally and physical exhausted in their fight. And he was hardly in great shape by the end of the fight in I Am Bane. He did not make this look effortless.

Tomasi and now King literally had Batman fight h2h. If Batman can fight 5-8 ton characters then any claim of him being human goes away. Christopher Priest even stated that he found the this whole notion silly, its why he didn't put Batman against Deathstroke because he believes the latter can kill Bruce with one blow if he wants. Batman can beat them yes but Batman has no business fighting characters multiple times physically superior to him in an all out brawl. Its Batgod non sense at its finest, worse its just lazy and bad writing.

Yeah well Christopher Priest had Wonder Woman get shot, and has had Slade last longer against Superman than he probably should, so I don't really care what he says. Honestly, he probably doesn't like the idea of Batman challenging Slade because he likes Slade and doesn't like Batman.

Um no, by this logic if Superman flies towards Batman then Bruce can knock him down using judo, ridiculous. The level of durability these characters posses makes such moves rather pointless. Imagine Darkseid trying to punch Batman only for Batman to use some martial arts move to redirect Darkseid's punch back at his face and knocking him unconscious as a consequence. I guarantee you would call out the writer on Batgod wankery should that ever happen. Besides it wasn't even the throw that finished Grundy, it was Batman stomping on his neck and causing him visible agony. So how do you explain that? and if Grundy was running with enough velocity and force that said force was strong enough to off set his durability then he should have run right over Batman turning him in to Batpaste. Without superhuman physicals this feat does not work. I care because I see King fans falsely proclaim how Batman under other writers is so Godly.

The level of durability Grundy possesses is always inconsistent. Yeah, he was fighting the Gotham twins, but it was established later in the story that their power adjusts based upon the threat level, to avoid taxing their powers and killing them quicker. The Grundy being fought in this sequence couldn't be as strong as Superman or Darkseid. And Batman has fought Grundy before and lived, so using the Zombie Hulk's momentum to knock himself out is sound.

Still doesn't change the fact that Batman lasted longest and made him bleed as well, while the rest of the League was manhandled. At the end Batman looked the best against Tom King's own character.

Probably shouldn't be surprising because again this is Batman's book, but the power level adjustment thing means Gotham wasn't fighting him at peak power level, and then he would have reduced Batman to a crimson mist effortlessly had Gotham Girl not shown up. And him beating the League doesn't mean anything when he dies at the end of the story, so he won't be around to be shoved down our throats.

So it doesn't strike you as Batgod wankery that King created circumstances where Batman and Wonder Woman are both EQUALLY powerful? I'll leave it at that.

Feel free to leave it at that I guess. Me, I think Batgod wankery would be him punching out Cheetah or whispering some magic words that robbed Circe of her power. This is some random demons, who gives a crap? Nobody is offended by their defeat. The use of Diana to be the temptation while he was away from Selina is the worst thing about that story, the power level stuff is just fanboy wankery not worth getting upset about. It's not as if he did significantly better against the demons than her.

We never saw any of this, they fired a few bullets that managed to hit civilians lol, so much for master marksmen, they had no visible signs of damage because their bullets were hitting fodder instead of each other. They were no more worn out than Batman was.

You know this how? Logic dictates that fighting for five days would wear someone out. Why do we need explanation more than that?

I already said that they gradually appeared less and less, they were in I am Gotham, then virtually non existent all the way to I am Bane, then Gordon showed up in the Swamp Thing issue then a few appearances in WOJAR and after that the occasional cameo status. king's run is now at 47 issues, 2 annuals and 2 one shots, he has no excuse beyond complete unwillingness and laziness.

Or his plot doesn't need them. Where is this rule that states they need to appear in every issue?

Where did I say that he cant make Selina the co lead? but maybe he should try to accommodate the basic supporting cast that Batman is known for, you know Alfred, Robin, Gordon etc instead if ignoring them for multiple issues and then giving them a single page and then repeating the process.

He is under no obligation to accommodate them. These are not new, underutilized characters. They have been around for as long as Batman himself. We don't need to see a lot of them in EVERY run, we have more than enough comics over the years with them in it, and will have plenty more in the future. Their limited role is not a valid, objective criticism of the run.

[Chubistian]

Bane killing Batman with only one blow? That Priest says that doesn’t make it a rule, it’s his notion on how a fight between these two would go. If Priest wrote it like that, it would be something without precedents, though I’m all in on seeing Priest handling Bane. And King showed Bane on venom being superior physically to Batman in I Am Bane, but Batman won by an inch because Bane spent a whole day fighting Arkham inmates. Batman winning against Bane on Venom in Batwoman, despite resorting to an especial serum, seemed too easy, Bruce always had the upper hand, but that wasn’t a comic about Batman nor Bane, so I was fine with it. Batman defeating Bane in Arkham War was anticlimactic though, all that plot of Bane earning sympathy from gothamites went nowhere and would have made an interesting change of events

EDIT: I confused Priest saying that Deathstroke would kill Batman with one blow with Bane, but the point remains of it being something a writer said without precedents

[SiegePerilous02]

Bane killing Batman with only one blow? That Priest says that doesn’t make it a rule, it’s his notion on how a fight between these two would go. If Priest wrote it like that, it would be something without precedents, though I’m all in on seeing Priest handling Bane. And King showed Bane on venom being superior physically to Batman in I Am Bane, but Batman won by an inch because Bane spent a whole day fighting Arkham inmates. Batman winning against Bane on Venom in Batwoman, despite resorting to an especial serum, seemed too easy, Bruce always had the upper hand, but that wasn’t a comic about Batman nor Bane, so I was fine with it. Batman defeating Bane in Arkham War was anticlimactic though, all that plot of Bane earning sympathy from gothamites went nowhere and would have made an interesting change of events

Agreed. Also, Slade being capable of killing Batman with a single blow is also ridiculous. Wolfman wrote Slade winning their fight in Slade's first series, but Batman took quite a beating before he went down. And as I've said numerous times, Deathstroke was challenged by the Teen Titans, while they were still green. Now that they are all experienced adults*, he should pose less of a threat to them, let alone their mentors.

*Well, when they are not written by Abnett.

[Chubistian]

Only problem here is that Grundy was shown fighting the Gotham siblings and winning before Batman stepped in to stomp him.

But they weren’t hurt, they just sucked at being heroes fighting a villain and weren’t using great extents of their powers. I wasn’t a fan of seeing Batman dealing with Grundy so easily, but I was fine with him winning and that fight was just the introduction of the issue, having the hero beating a villain to start a comic is something typical and given Grundy’s irregulars powers levels I can see him losing

[dancj]

Well so far I'm two TPBs into Snyder (Black Mirror and Court of Owls) and two TPBs into King (I am Gotham and I am Suicide).

so far King is definitely winning for me. If Snyder keeps up the quality of Black Mirror it'd be neck and neck, but Court of Owls isn't in the same league as the other three books.

[dancj]

I've already always felt that Grundy does have different power levels with each resurrection mainly because writers seem to always write him that way. Not sure if it's intentional or not though.

It's intentional. His power level, personality and level of intelligence all change each time he's reborn.

[DragonPiece]

Well so far I'm two TPBs into Snyder (Black Mirror and Court of Owls) and two TPBs into King (I am Gotham and I am Suicide).

so far King is definitely winning for me. If Snyder keeps up the quality of Black Mirror it'd be neck and neck, but Court of Owls isn't in the same league as the other three books.

interesting opinion, don't think King has come close to being as good as Snyder during the court of owls arc, but I guess we all have our opinions.