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  1. #151
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Haven't read much of either (Court of Owls and Zero Year for Snyder, War of Jokes and Riddles for King), so I can't make a great comparison, but...

    Court of Owls is pretty good, and I can see how people love it, but it seems over-hyped to me. The Court of Owls is a great idea like R'as al Ghul and I hope over the decades to come that whole idea and concept enriches the mythos, but the ending always rankled me in that you needed to get City of Owls or whatever to finish it. Court always felt incomplete by itself.

    Zero Year is a mixed situation. Secret City with the Red Hood is one of my favorite stories in my limited collection, and I prefer it over The Killing Joke as an origin for the Joker (before you get out the torches, I do love this story dearly, but for a multiple choice Joker origin Zero Year - Secret City is more epic), and over Year One for Batman (before you get out the pitchforks, I do consider Year One the better story, but it works better as a Jim Gordon origin than as Batman's). Plus the updated version of Batman's original purple gloves costume is pretty neat. And I loved how Riddler came across during Secret City and made me super excited to read his half of Zero Year...but that's where it gets less good. Dark City and Savage City never quite reach the same height as the first entry of the arc. It was still a fun ride though and parts of it were pretty cool, but felt a bit like a letdown after the first part. I should reread it soon and see how I feel about it years later.

    Zero Year actually reminds me of Earth One in a way - both got me really excited for a great modern Riddler introduction story, and neither quite delivered what I was hoping for.

    War of Jokes and Riddles is also a bit of a mixed bag too, albeit in different ways. I certainly understand the criticism that they tell us rather than show us why this gang war is so bad, when really I wanted to see more of the violence on the streets and the consequences and collateral damage to Gotham. People keep saying that the original plan was for 12 issues, and I think it could have been better with more room for the war to really breathe. That said, there is really some good stuff here. I loved the dialogue, how Joker and Riddler traded jokes and riddles to cut one another down verbally was fun! This story actually managed to make you like and root for Kite Man of all people, while still very much keeping him a joke villain and making that okay. The Riddler actually felt like an A lister level threat alongside the Joker unlike Zero Year while making him mostly live up to that smartest man in the room bit he believes that he is. And I know some fans complain whenever Deathstroke appears outside his rivalry/deviltry with Dick, but it works here because this is pre-Robin. There's no reason to believe in all his years as a criminal mercenary before the Teen Titans he couldn't have come into conflict with Batman or other heroes. I even thought Batman trying to kill the Riddler for killing Kite Man's kid just for a scheme to prove how smart he is really worked, and the Joker stopped Batman from doing it (why?)!


    In conclusion, both writers have given me stories that are flawed yet ultimately fun. But if I have to choose between the two, I give Snyder and Zero Year the clear edge over King and the War of Jokes and Riddles, but from what I've read I really don't understand the hate either gets.

  2. #152
    Incredible Member Black_Adam's Avatar
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    I enjoy King's run well enough, I Am Bane is probably my favourite story of his. But as others have mentioned King's dialogue for Batman just feels a bit off, he writes a Batman who feels very robotic, apathetic and disconnected it's hard to like his version sometimes. Even the whole Bat-Cat engagement feels unnatural and contrived. Now it seems the modern version of Batman means = arrogant, dour, douchebag, but Batman for me has always had a very strong moral compass and one of his most underrated qualities is his compassion, I mean he did adopt 3 young boys. I don't think King quite captures this aspect of the character or at least does a very good job showing it.

    Snyder wasn't perfect (one of the dumbest things I ever read is that time he punched Dick in the face just to make a point) but IMO he did a better job of capturing the emotion of the character.
    When you crush an ant beneath your foot, do feel remorse? No. Is this because you are evil or because you recognize yourself as a higher form of life? This is what the Wizard could not understand. If I have the powers of the gods, then am I not a god myself? Should I not be treated as such?

  3. #153
    CBR got me like.. Maxpower00044's Avatar
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    While King is one of my favorite writers going right now, and his Batman has had some great high points (Rooftops, Brave and the Mold, Annual 2), I gotta give it to Snyder, hands down. Snyder and Capullo’s run will always be one of my favorite runs on the character.
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  4. #154
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    Snyder is better at concept and plot, but his endings sucked almost all the way around. King has less spectacular stories, but really sticks every ending well.

    Overall I was disappointed with Snyder's run even though it had higher highs. King's run hasn't really disappointed me yet.
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  5. #155
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Perhaps in the interests of leaving the Zdarsky thread free for the start of discussion tomorrow, I was wondering if @Frontier would be willing to chat more about Scott Snyder's run on Batman, particularly Death of the Family, Endgame, and Last Knight on Earth.
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  6. #156
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Perhaps in the interests of leaving the Zdarsky thread free for the start of discussion tomorrow, I was wondering if @Frontier would be willing to chat more about Scott Snyder's run on Batman, particularly Death of the Family, Endgame, and Last Knight on Earth.
    Okay, well, random Snyder critiques of those stories:

    - Joker thinking he's Batman's court jester...not everything needs to be this grand, mythic, function or need a bunch of symbolism Snyder! Nor do we need people to constantly monologue about facts, emotions, or stuff from their pasts, etc.

    - Facemask Joker...made sense from a horror perspective but was a terrible Joker look and we had that be the default for longer than it should've been.

    - Why does Joker have scratchy speech bubbles? He's not a demon, he's just a dude who feel in a vat of chemicals (which Snyder actually showed!) the worst part is DC took that and ran with it for most of Jokers' appearances. What, is it meant to show off how damaged his vocal chords are after the chemical bath?

    - Started the trend of the Batfamily being wallpaper or in distress for Batman which continues to this day.

    - I think everyone ragged on how dumb Two-Face being stumped by a multiple-choice-question was.

    - I think they explained why Penguin was in the whole "court of advisors" scene but it was really weird those three went along with it.

    - The Justice League getting Jokerized and Batman taking down the Big Seven was one of the most stereotypical "Batman owns the DCU" moments. I mean, Snyder tried to throw in a justification that nobody wins between Batman and Superman, but it doesn't really help the case of why other fans of the DCU resent Batman so much. Or how Snyder's Batman always dominates the DCU.

    - The "Eric Border" thing could've been better executed or developed better.

    All that being said, I still prefer Snyder to King .

  7. #157
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Okay, well, random Snyder critiques of those stories:

    - Joker thinking he's Batman's court jester...not everything needs to be this grand, mythic, function or need a bunch of symbolism Snyder! Nor do we need people to constantly monologue about facts, emotions, or stuff from their pasts, etc.

    - Facemask Joker...made sense from a horror perspective but was a terrible Joker look and we had that be the default for longer than it should've been.

    - Why does Joker have scratchy speech bubbles? He's not a demon, he's just a dude who feel in a vat of chemicals (which Snyder actually showed!) the worst part is DC took that and ran with it for most of Jokers' appearances. What, is it meant to show off how damaged his vocal chords are after the chemical bath?

    - Started the trend of the Batfamily being wallpaper or in distress for Batman which continues to this day.

    - I think everyone ragged on how dumb Two-Face being stumped by a multiple-choice-question was.

    - I think they explained why Penguin was in the whole "court of advisors" scene but it was really weird those three went along with it.

    - The Justice League getting Jokerized and Batman taking down the Big Seven was one of the most stereotypical "Batman owns the DCU" moments. I mean, Snyder tried to throw in a justification that nobody wins between Batman and Superman, but it doesn't really help the case of why other fans of the DCU resent Batman so much. Or how Snyder's Batman always dominates the DCU.

    - The "Eric Border" thing could've been better executed or developed better.

    All that being said, I still prefer Snyder to King .
    Solid points!

    I don't mind the operatic tone that Snyder always affects, but it is present all the time, like King's poems/song lyrics and achronological storytelling. I think that's mostly a stylistic thing that either works or it doesn't.

    I am curious whether keeping facemask Joker was editorial or Snyder's idea. I know that editorial made Tony Daniel do something to keep Joker off the table for a while, and either he or editorial chose the facemask thing, but Snyder really ran with it.

    The Joker font was really obnoxious. It got worse with the Batman Who Lulz, because of the colors making it even HARDER to read. Completely agree there.

    I'm of two minds with Snyder's popularizing the "big Batfamily montage scenes where they mostly fail/need help" - on the one hand, it is nice seeing them used, on the other, it doesn't really enhance their characters to be put in crowd scenes.

    I think I missed the Two-Face story. I do think Snyder's "riddles" in Zero Year's final issue were incredibly dumb.

    The first two issues of Endgame are just so...Batgod. It really reminds me of the anecdote I heard about the writers talking about who would win in a fight, and Snyder interrupting and saying "yeah, but then the guy you just said would win takes off his mask and it's Batman". That's just obnoxious.

    I feel like you had to read too much stuff outside of Snyder's run to make the Eric Border thing make sense.

    And hey, everyone has their preferences. I just happen to prefer King to everyone else.
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  8. #158
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    . . . All that being said, I still prefer Snyder to King .
    Hell, I prefer Tony Daniel to Tom King . . .

  9. #159
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Solid points!

    I don't mind the operatic tone that Snyder always affects, but it is present all the time, like King's poems/song lyrics and achronological storytelling. I think that's mostly a stylistic thing that either works or it doesn't.

    I am curious whether keeping facemask Joker was editorial or Snyder's idea. I know that editorial made Tony Daniel do something to keep Joker off the table for a while, and either he or editorial chose the facemask thing, but Snyder really ran with it.

    The Joker font was really obnoxious. It got worse with the Batman Who Lulz, because of the colors making it even HARDER to read. Completely agree there.

    I'm of two minds with Snyder's popularizing the "big Batfamily montage scenes where they mostly fail/need help" - on the one hand, it is nice seeing them used, on the other, it doesn't really enhance their characters to be put in crowd scenes.

    I think I missed the Two-Face story. I do think Snyder's "riddles" in Zero Year's final issue were incredibly dumb.

    The first two issues of Endgame are just so...Batgod. It really reminds me of the anecdote I heard about the writers talking about who would win in a fight, and Snyder interrupting and saying "yeah, but then the guy you just said would win takes off his mask and it's Batman". That's just obnoxious.

    I feel like you had to read too much stuff outside of Snyder's run to make the Eric Border thing make sense.

    And hey, everyone has their preferences. I just happen to prefer King to everyone else.
    I think it was a backup where Joker tried to dissuage the other villains from just outright killing Batman. He basically throws a bunch of multiple-choice questions at Two-Face to get him to stop, like that's the obvious solution to stopping a guy who makes arbitrary decisions based on a coin-flip.

    Riddles are hard to write, though I preferred Snyder's Riddler to King.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Hell, I prefer Tony Daniel to Tom King . . .
    I mean, Daniel's writing is...okay .

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The first two issues of Endgame are just so...Batgod. It really reminds me of the anecdote I heard about the writers talking about who would win in a fight, and Snyder interrupting and saying "yeah, but then the guy you just said would win takes off his mask and it's Batman". That's just obnoxious.
    Don't know I still fell like Batman having a super expensive mech suit to to fight the JL, makes more sense then Selina knocking out several speedsters of Batman taking out Grundy with his bare hands.

  11. #161
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Hell, I prefer Tony Daniel to Tom King . . .
    I like Tony Daniel's run on Batman proper, in the RIP/Reborn context. I don't find what he was doing in Detective with the n52 very good, though.

    But then, King is my absolute favorite Batman writer, so I'm just that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it was a backup where Joker tried to dissuage the other villains from just outright killing Batman. He basically throws a bunch of multiple-choice questions at Two-Face to get him to stop, like that's the obvious solution to stopping a guy who makes arbitrary decisions based on a coin-flip.

    Riddles are hard to write, though I preferred Snyder's Riddler to King.
    I miss Dini's Riddler most. Snyder turned Riddler into "Joker but with bad Riddles", and King had Riddler mostly be a gang leader with complicated plans. Though I will say I kinda liked his Riddler better in Killing Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Don't know I still fell like Batman having a super expensive mech suit to to fight the JL, makes more sense then Selina knocking out several speedsters of Batman taking out Grundy with his bare hands.
    Shrug. I don't really play powerlevels. I just really don't like the way Snyder sees Batman as the literal center of the universe. On a philosophical and spiritual level.
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  12. #162
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Shrug. I don't really play powerlevels. I just really don't like the way Snyder sees Batman as the literal center of the universe. On a philosophical and spiritual level.
    I think that was what finally made me take distance from his Batman. I loved N52 Batman as it was coming out, but I had an issue with that aspect of the series. When I read Metal I decided his Batman just wasn't for me anymore.

    I was already burned out, as I skipped All Star Batman.
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  13. #163
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Snyder is better at concept and plot
    I agree with this. Whereas I think Tom king is better at hitting striking up better avant-garde arthouse (Eisner-winning) fare in specials and one-shots.

    Snyder's concept and plot superiority makes for more fun bombastic high-stakes more conventional stories, and he usually goes to some interesting places as far as themes/commentary and aesthetic.

    I guess maybe I'd pick Snyder, but King is maybe the one more capable of the most truly lasting Batman tales (when he's not decompressing, which he's often doing, to his detriment).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Okay, well, random Snyder critiques of those stories:

    - Joker thinking he's Batman's court jester...not everything needs to be this grand, mythic, function or need a bunch of symbolism Snyder! Nor do we need people to constantly monologue about facts, emotions, or stuff from their pasts, etc.
    See, I myself don't see this as a negative, but a key core positive of Snyder. Because I think Snyder manages to find new (and interesting) angles and dimensions to mine for characters like Joker (and Batman and other rogues and sidekicks).
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 08-02-2022 at 12:36 PM.
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  14. #164
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    Imo Tom kings batman is one of the worst books I've ever read

    Bar none

    And I still don't think the bats recovered

    Not sure the mythos will

    So yeah, scotts

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Hell, I prefer Tony Daniel to Tom King . . .
    Tony Daniel can stick the landing, which neither King nor Snyder have ever achieved. Plus his Dick!Bats run was fantastic and should be reintegrated into main canon. Especially "The Eye of the Beholder." Peacock was a fantastic love interest for Dick, a perfect mirror and foil all the way down to the beloved yet obnoxious baby brother.

    I tend to reread his run once a year, which is more than I do Snyder's. I dropped Snyder during Endgame as it bored me, but picked it back up for the Jim!Bats era which was mostly solid and enjoyable.

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