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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I see nothing wrong with it.
    Ok---and that's fine. You are free to express that you see nothing wrong with it just myself and others are allowed to explain why we feel it's dated and strange and doesn't fit Lois and Clark as individuals or as a couple.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    It's not ageist, to suggest that the writing is dated. It's just false to these characters.
    THANK YOU.

    It's very dated and very false to me and I cringed the entire way through it. I cannot wait for fresh blood on these books even if it is Bendis.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, Clark Kent with the age as he's portrayed today, all things considered, would probably be more wont to point at a TV dad like Steven Keaton from Family Ties over Andy Griffith.

    I like how they've handled Jon in several instances but their handling of this marriage and Lois in general is conservative, old, saccharine, dated, patronizing and boring. Did I mention overly conservative and old?
    Everyone who's had the displeasure of reading me complain knows that I can't stand Jon, but other than that, pretty much agree with all this. I thought it had a good start utilizing Lois in the Superman and Son arc, but it got old quick, they constantly went to the same bag of tricks to incorporate her in the story, none of them being her using the skills inherent to her character. And the Lois/Clark dynamic on its own has been awful from the start. Bendis can't do worse. You can always end up going in the other direction, from sickening sweet that makes my diabetes hurt just from reading it, or too angsty and contentious. But there's a healthy middle. I hope he finds it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-19-2018 at 10:56 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yeah, Clark Kent with the age as he's portrayed today, all things considered, would probably be more wont to point at a TV dad like Steven Keaton from Family Ties over Andy Griffith.
    I mean.... I ::think:: (maybe I am wrong) that they are supposed to be watching Stranger Things on Netflix? Maybe? Which would make sense because Stranger Things was literally designed to be nostalgia TV for adults who are now in their 30's and who were kids in the 80's. Which doesn't mean that all ages don't enjoy it but that was definitely part of it's appeal and the target demo.

    Nostalgia TV for someone Lois and Clark's age is like....Cheers. The Cosby Show. (Yes, I understand that that show has been impacted by the terrible revelations now about Cosby so that was probably out.) Murphy Brown. Even Friends, Seinfeld etc.

    I just...I'm sorry guys. I'm not trying to be a downer here but so much of that entire conversation made me physically cringe. I know Tomasi and Gleason's hearts are likely in the right place but ....it's not good.

    Everyone who's had the displeasure of reading me complain knows that I can't stand Jon, but other than that, pretty much agree with all this. I thought it had a good start utilizing Lois in the Superman and Son arc, but it got old quick, they constantly went to the same bag of tricks to incorporate her in the story, none of them being her using the skills inherent to her character. And the Lois/Clark dynamic on its own has been awful from the start. Bendis can't do worse. You can always end up going in the other direction, from sickening sweet that makes my diabetes hurt just from reading it, or too angsty and contentious. But there's a healthy middle. I hope he finds it
    Where we disagree is Jon. I love him a lot and I could write a book on why I love him and why I think it's amazing as a character. But yes. There have been a few Lois/Clark moments here or there that I liked but mostly...agreed. I do not think they have done ANYTHING to use her actual skills.

    I believe that they meant well with the "I've always thought Moms were heroes" thing but...it's just very dated. In 2018---this is a GIVEN. It's a given that it's hard to be a mother and so it feels very, very patronizing when you have male writers like explaining it to you through Clark Kent's mouth. Mainly because the idea should be that fathers and mothers work equally hard and that it's a give and take. Equality. 30 something working mothers don't need men telling them that moms are "heroes" because the idea for most of us is that it's a partnerships and we are in it together. Just as, in a loving marriage, you don't need to say to your spouse, "Oh well Diana doesn't have a Pulitzer." So you married her for her Pulitzer, Clark? Lois Lane doesn't have to prove she's better than Wonder Woman in any capacity to be the woman that Clark eventually realizes is the person he wants to marry. That's not the standard here. It's structured like a compliment (and I'm sure was meant as one by the writers) but it's dated and cringey.

    Edited to add: What really gets me is that what I love distinctly about Jon Kent as a character is that he could have just gone the way of being a little Clark clone. That would have been the easy route. But that's not who he is. There is so much about him that I really do attribute to Lois. I like him distinctly because he feels so much to me the kind of child that only SHE could raise. His curiosity, his knack for trouble...there is so much Lois in him. Which is why it's so bizarre to me (pun intended) that they could do such a good job with the kid but repeatedly do so poorly with Lois. I will not miss these writers on this book. I wish them the best but I'm done with them and I honestly wish Gleason was leaving too.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 03-19-2018 at 11:04 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yeah, Clark Kent with the age as he's portrayed today, all things considered, would probably be more wont to point at a TV dad like Steven Keaton from Family Ties over Andy Griffith.


    Everyone who's had the displeasure of reading me complain knows that I can't stand Jon, but other than that, pretty much agree with all this. I thought it had a good start utilizing Lois in the Superman and Son arc, but it got old quick, they constantly went to the same bag of tricks to incorporate her in the story, none of them being her using the skills inherent to her character. And the Lois/Clark dynamic on its own has been awful from the start. Bendis can't do worse. You can always end up going in the other direction, from sickening sweet that makes my diabetes hurt just from reading it, or too angsty and contentious. But there's a healthy middle. I hope he finds it.
    Ah, I bet half of this response is because you got triggered by that Wonder Woman jab

    Nothing wrong with the Lois/Clark dynamic, and I'm confident plenty of fans of the pairing will disagree with you and praise it in the appreciation thread.

    And just wait 'till Bendis gets his mits on this. I'm a fan of his work and even I'm dreading what he does.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Eh. It was a stupid piece of dialogue, but it was stupid because of the points Nelli made. Overall, my reasoning for thinking Tomasi has written their dynamic terrible over this run has remained pretty consistent, with this another example, and it would have been terrible even without that WW line. Nelliebly articulated it better than I ever have, but I've always felt it was too saccharine and one-dimensional. The WW thing...look I know what they think of it by now, I'm numb to it. I don't particularly need nor want their validation about it anyway. Hence why I never even brought it up in the first place.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-19-2018 at 11:14 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Ah, I bet half of this response is because you got triggered by that Wonder Woman jab

    Nothing wrong with the Lois/Clark dynamic, and I'm confident plenty of fans of the pairing will disagree with you and praise it in the appreciation thread.

    And just wait 'till Bendis gets his mits on this. I'm a fan of his work and even I'm dreading what he does.
    Miles, I am a huge fan of the Lois/Clark pairing. Huge. They are my favorite pairing in fiction.

    I'm sure there will be some fans who are fine with this kind of writing for them. I also know very well that there are a lot of fans who do NOT like it. They just don't post here. But Tomasi and Gleason's rather dated treatment of Lois has been a discouragement to several women I know who would otherwise regularly be buying this book but instead have stuck only to Action Comics. I am the first person to call out someone's Superman/Wonder woman bias but you cannot assume that Sacred's commentary here is biased in that regard because I am the biggest fan of Lois/Clark there is and I have a lot of issues with the writing in this book. You need to be fair here, dude.

    I'm extremely nervous about Bendis. I really am. But I am also ready for a change here because this writing feels very stale to me. Both of these things can be true.

    Also, I didn't think that the Wonder Woman line was a jab. I didn't find it particularly flattering to Lois either. Because the bottom line is that Lois Lane doesn't have to prove she's better than Diana to be worthy of Clark's eternal devotion and love. The fact that fans (and writers) act like she does is a problem and not fair to her. It still keeps the women in competition with each other and that's not ok. Wonder Woman can be the greatest female superhero we have in this world (and she is) and still NOT be "the one" for Superman. Because love is just more complex than that. Love isn't a checklist about who is "the best" at anything. It's about how you feel. Lois Lane does not have to prove she's better than Wonder woman at anything to be the love of his life. That's the reality.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 03-19-2018 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The Bizarro stuff is fine. But I rolled my eyes through the entire Lois/Clark scene in that preview. Awful. Dated. Bad writing. These writers do not know how to write relationships or women and I'm just so completely done with it.

    As nervous as I am for Bendis, I will take literally anyone at this point writing Lois Lane and Lois/Clark other than Tomasi and Gleason. They do not have any understanding about how WOMEN ACTUALLY talk.

    First off, NO ONE in their late 30's (because according to Jurgens Clark and Lois are only supposed to be like 38 in Rebirth timeline) gives a crap about Andy Griffith or the Honeymooners. That is not nostalgia TV for 30 somethings. Even someone like Clark Kent. You would have to be 55 years old AT LEAST to care about either of those shows. Two, The Honeymooners was a super sexist show with super traditional gender roles where the husband used to joke about beating the wife. Like...what were Tomasi and Gleason thinking with this? If you want Clark to long for nostalgia TV.....there were like a million other choices here that might actually make sense. Or have Lois say she liked watching "Mary Tyler Moore" since at least that show was about journalism and Mary Tyler Moore herself was a Lois archetype in the 70's. But either way? All these shows are too dated and just remind me that these writers are too removed or something from this stage of life. It's very weird.

    Two, the whole "I think Moms should get awards" and "You couldn't married Wonder Woman" is absolutely awful. Again, WOMEN DO NOT TALK LIKE THIS. COUPLES DO NOT TALK LIKE THIS.

    It's all very patronizing. Mothers do not need awards. They need to be treated like people and their role, hypothetically, should not be any harder or more demanding than a father's role. The whole "oh I think moms should get awards" thing is something that men say and they think it's progressive but it's like this super conservative thing. It sounds like something Mitt Romney or Mike Pence would say. It's just very, very patronizing. And a husband like Clark Kent would not SAY that to his wife while they are having a casual evening on the couch. And the "You could have had anyone" convo is structured to be flattering to Lois but again it's also patronizing as crap.

    Lois Lane doesn't NEED to have a Pulitzer to be worthy of marrying Clark Kent. She doesn't NEED a Pulitzer as soon kind of "proof" that she's good enough for him. It's all stupid. And she should never, ever be forced to utter the words, "You could have married Wonder Woman." ICK. YUCK. YUCK. So Lois is lucky or something that Clark deigned to choose her over Wonder Woman? OH BARF. BARF BARF.

    These two people have been together a long time. They love each other completely and are completely secure in their relationship. They wouldn't talk like this. This is bad writing.

    Whatever Bendis has planned, I'm sure, is better than this. Best of luck to Tomasi and Gleason. They've done some things I really like on this book, truly. I like how they've handled Jon in several instances but their handling of this marriage and Lois in general is conservative, old, saccharine, dated, patronizing and boring. Did I mention overly conservative and old?
    While i don't agree with lot of things you mentioned and i liked the preview you have put your points quite well. To understand what you mean. I can see now, why some people are complaining even if i don't agree with them. I hope Bendis writes in a way which is satisfying enough to all of us. If you had been reading this for past two years and hating it like this, i can't imagine being in your position.

    I will add something. I think the Putlizer award is not to be taken on face value. If that is taken on face value it is laughable. You marry someone due to Putlizer award? No that is Clark kidding.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 03-19-2018 at 11:12 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    While i don't agree with lot of things you mentioned and i liked the preview you have put your points quite well. To understand what you mean. I can see now, why some people are complaining even if i don't agree with them. I hope Bendis writes in a way which is satisfying enough to all of us. If you had been reading this for past two years and hating this i can't imagine being in your position.

    I will add something. I think the Putlizer award is not to be taken on face value. If that is taken on face value it is laughable. You marry someone due to Putlizer award? No that is Clark kidding.

    The thing is...I don't hate all of it. That's a very strong word. My position is way more nuanced than that about the book overall. I'm thrilled Lois and Clark are married again because I think there is so much value in showing them committed to each other and I love the relationship. And I truly do love seeing a happy family. I've had a lot of strife in my life over the last few years and it absolutely does cheer me up to see this loving family together going up against all these challenges. I love that piece of it so I want to be clear. And I genuinely love Jon. I think he's one of the best if not THE best new character DC has introduced in a long, long time. And what I love most is that he's so clearly Lois's son. He's not just a Clark clone. He is absolutely the product of their marriage and love and her curiosity and personality. I love all of this.

    But, yes, I have found a lot of the writing in this book in particular (frankly Jurgens did better by her in my opinion) to be really frustrating because while I LOVE the family dynamic it often feels to me that Tomasi and Gleason think that women just give up who they are when they become wives and mothers and that they have a very generic view of female "strength." They've forced a lot of traditional gender dynamics on a female character who is notoriously not conventional and that really frustrates me. And they've received enough criticism about this from other women for me to know that it's not just me who feels this way when I read it. I just don't feel like they gave a lot of thought to WHO Lois would be as a mother whereas, to be honest, I think that Dan Jurgens actually did. I even think Tom King did and he only wrote Superman for like two issues that weren't even about him.

    The Pulitzer comment is a joke but it's still something that bugs me because, again, Lois's accomplishments are not to be compared to Wonder Woman's as some kind of statement of either woman's value. Even as a joke.

  10. #25
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    Sacred, I think labeling sentimental and warm hearted moments as "so sickeningly sweet it affects my diabetes" is being a bit too crass, and while I know you don't intend it as such, it's the sort of quasi-troll comment that can undermine your point, we get that you've never liked this particular direction for the Super-books, or Jon, but you're in the minority where that's concerned. That doesn't mean you don't have a valid point, but you can still maintain a credible stance by not relying on such juvenile depictions of scenarios you don't enjoy.

    And I'm very sorry to hear you have diabetes.

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    S'alright, hell that's the whole reason I made the joke. Sometimes you gotta laugh at yourself. It was basically me having a laugh at my own expense mixed in with the genuine criticism. It wasn't meant to offend anyone.

    But the main thing has just been I haven't felt any dimension to them under Tomasi's pen. A happy marriage is great. But I don't feel Tomasi has ever written a happy marriage because I don't think he's ever actually explored the marriage period. He's never put any mark of depth onto their relationship at all. Whenever they're together its just stuff like this. Which is fine sometimes. Our Town is my favorite issue of this run after all. But for an entire run there's been nothing more to their dynamic, and to me it makes the entire thing seem hollow. I'm not saying they need to fight all the time and never cuddle or whatnot, as its not about fighting. Its just about trying to portray a real marriage within this unreal world. Things of substance beyond the superficial.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-19-2018 at 11:29 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Sacred, I think labeling sentimental and warm hearted moments as "so sickeningly sweet it affects my diabetes" is being a bit too crass, and while I know you don't intend it as such, it's the sort of quasi-troll comment that can undermine your point, we get that you've never liked this particular direction for the Super-books, or Jon, but you're in the minority where that's concerned. That doesn't mean you don't have a valid point, but you can still maintain a credible stance by not relying on such juvenile depictions of scenarios you don't enjoy.

    And I'm very sorry to hear you have diabetes.
    Can you try and understand where I'm coming from then? Because Sacred already politely (thank you btw) said that he thinks I explained the problem better than he's ever been able to.

    I clearly don't have a bias against Lois and Clark, Miles. They are my favorite couple in fiction and I loathe Superman/Wonder Woman with the fire of a thousand Kryptonian red suns.

    But I feel super frustrated with the way Tomasi and Gleason have treated Lois. To me, it's not even that they are too "sweet" or "loving" or any of that stuff. It's that they aren't talking like themselves. Because she's been turned into a pod person and he's been turned into apparently a guy who wants to watch The Honeymooners for "nostalgia" even though he's like 37. WHAT?
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 03-19-2018 at 11:27 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    But the main thing has just been I haven't felt the dimension. A happy marriage is great. But I don't feel Tomasi has ever written a happy marriage because I don't think he's ever actually explored the marriage. He's never put any mark of depth onto their relationship at all. Whenever they're together its just stuff like this. Which is fine in issues like Our Town. But for an entire run there's been nothing more on a level of their dynamic. I'm not saying they need to fight all the time and never cuddle or whatnot, but there's been nothing of substance to their relationship in this run beyond the superficial.
    I understand you...sometimes a little pain in their lives is what's needed to give the relationship some spark with readers so they can relate to it and appreciate these moments better. Too much of it can be tiring. That's kind of why I always envision worst-case scenarios in my head so I appreciate the moments they spend together in the comics better.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I also know that it can sound like I just have sour grapes because I never wanted the marriage back in the first place. And its not unfair to point out I didn't want it back. Hell if I had my way today I'd STILL go back to the rival/sexual tension dynamic. But that's neither here nor there anymore. They ARE married and they do have a kid so I'm just looking for explorations of that in interesting ways. Beyond it just being there in the ether, as that's what I felt happened to it pre-FP that made me an advocate to get rid of it in the first place.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    The thing is...I don't hate all of it. That's a very strong word. My position is way more nuanced than that about the book overall. I'm thrilled Lois and Clark are married again because I think there is so much value in showing them committed to each other and I love the relationship. And I truly do love seeing a happy family. I've had a lot of strife in my life over the last few years and it absolutely does cheer me up to see this loving family together going up against all these challenges. I love that piece of it so I want to be clear. And I genuinely love Jon. I think he's one of the best if not THE best new character DC has introduced in a long, long time. And what I love most is that he's so clearly Lois's son. He's not just a Clark clone. He is absolutely the product of their marriage and love and her curiosity and personality. I love all of this.

    But, yes, I have found a lot of the writing in this book in particular (frankly Jurgens did better by her in my opinion) to be really frustrating because while I LOVE the family dynamic it often feels to me that Tomasi and Gleason think that women just give up who they are when they become wives and mothers and that they have a very generic view of female "strength." They've forced a lot of traditional gender dynamics on a female character who is notoriously not conventional and that really frustrates me. And they've received enough criticism about this from other women for me to know that it's not just me who feels this way when I read it. I just don't feel like they gave a lot of thought to WHO Lois would be as a mother whereas, to be honest, I think that Dan Jurgens actually did. I even think Tom King did and he only wrote Superman for like two issues that weren't even about him.

    The Pulitzer comment is a joke but it's still something that bugs me because, again, Lois's accomplishments are not to be compared to Wonder Woman's as some kind of statement of either woman's value. Even as a joke.
    Okay mixed then. Your post made it sound like you hate this with a thousand suns. I am glad that we are in the same page in so many ways. Lois and Clark's marriage, Jon. I love all of this in the same way as you. I hope Bendis is the answer. I am sad to see you not liking this dialogue. All the stuff you mentioned. Hope this gets better for you. And fans who did not have such problems would like that too. Its just a few more issues.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 03-19-2018 at 11:44 AM.

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