Should they stop making DC movies?

[Vinsanity]

Answer - No, they should not stop. Wonder Woman was amazing, better than any Marvel flick imo (To add Marvel have really good flicks)

Marvel need to have more Renner though.

[mace11]

Deleted reply.

[JKtheMac]

SECOND EDIT: Just saw that your post was edited to reflect that you were talking about theatrical run, this post is redundant, :P

Relatve measures of redundancy pervade. <wink>

[JKtheMac]

I remember reports back then saying despite making 700m that ASM 2 lost money. IIRC the Marketing on the movie was unusually expensive.

25m from merchandising? What is Sony allowed to Merchandise? Thought Marvel gets all that Merch money.

Yes, somebody thought it was a good idea to try and boost ASM2 by spending a huge amount on international marketing. Assuming it moved ticket numbers it may have been cost neutral, but I think the bean counters at Sony retrospectively decided it was not a good move. It felt like a gamble at the time and it probably was. The problem with marketing is it is quite difficult to measure effectively. It is entirely possible ASM2 would have fallen totally flat and that the marketing saved it in the long run.

The logic seemed to be ‘Sony needs a franchise, let’s build from here and make sure everyone knows about this movie’. It all seemed so easy when Harry Potter and the MCU were doing it why couldn’t Sony? The same logic applies to WB. They wanted to exploit DC as a potential franchise. Is that possible? We are yet to see the evidence. We don’t seem to be seeing the kind of collective goodwill from one movie to another. They seem to be performing as individual blockbusters and each taken on their own merits.

Personally I think they should go back to the drawing board, maybe try and build from here and include the past, but shift the tone and emphasis. Exactly how is not something I can comment on. That’s a huge decision to be made by a large number of stake holders. It won’t come down to fan concerns it will come down to a new vision being shaped and pushed through that is more relevant to our times. That is a very difficult thing to achieve and the stakes are very high.

We shouldn’t be so obsessed with what Marvel did right. That was the past. It was essentially a gamble that paid off and no indication of how to proceed in the future.

[devil leonx]

No not at all, the casts they have are great, they just need to make at least GOOD movies to great movies, they need to take their time and not rush anything. They also need to stop announcing 10 different projects before they even started filming the ones they already have annouced. Also Wb needs to just hire great people with creative visions and let them do their job and stop being the puppeteer master behind the scenes. Yes they do not want any creator going to too extreme of course but their needs to be a good give and take type of business relationship. I do want to say I do not think all their films are bad, in fact I think man of Steel is actually incredible, Wonder Woman is good as well, I like justice League actually but it could have been more awesome then it was.

[Powerboy]

Yeah, by like 100 mill difference at least between them all too. The DCEU movies are also pretty competitive even against already established brands too.

It does seem to me that, with the exception of "Justice League", the DC movies have done quite well and only sometimes seem like they didn't when you compare them to the Marvel movies and mostly to the biggest Marvel movies.

One could contend that being a divisive film is superior to being a forgotten one. MoS and BvS have a strong cult following that will only become more appreciated as time moves on, where as most Marvel films are simply forgotten within a month after they come out. It may not incite box office crowds to break records, but, I don't actually pin my appreciation for films based on how much money someone else banked.

As far as the last sentence, the unfortunate thing is that box office results is precisely what movie studios pin decisions on. How MoS and B vs S will be looked upon in the future is guesswork and preference. I don't think Iron-Man, Iron-Man 3, the second and third Captain America movies, the Avengers and a slew of other Marvel movies are going to be soon forgotten. Nor do I think the Guardians movies or Ant-Man will soon be forgotten or even Thor: Ragnarok and definitely not the Black Panther. The first Captain America movie may not be as admired as the other two but it really deserves to be remembered in my opinion. To be sure, there are some mostly forgotten ones like the Incredible Hulk and Thor. I'm not saying they deserve to be forgotten but they didn't do as well.

I don't think any of the DC movies deserve to be forgotten either except for maybe the Justice League. I loved it but, other than the idea of these heroes appearing together, it didn't have much. Suicide Squad was okay, kind of fun and kind of serious, certainly middle of the road. Wonder Woman was phenomenal. "Man of Steel" is underrated. It glorifies the violence way too much in the last half hour or so. Contrast it to the Avengers which focuses on the heroes saving people as opposed to focusing on the destruction itself. But it's very good other than that. While the death of Jonathan Kent is nonsensical in one way, it serves a plot point about how totally Clark trusted him in the end, that he was that sure his father was right that he even allowed him to make that sacrifice and that had just argued and Clark had said Jonathan wasn't his father but screams "Dad" at the moment of truth. And Jonathan's "paranoia" was not paranoia. It would have been in the four color world of previous movies. But in a realistic Post September 11, 2001 world of bigotry and an attitude that "If one of them did it, they all did it", the "ultimate immigrant" if revealed publicly would have been feared and hated unless it was at exactly the right time that he revealed himself.

But I digress. At the beginning of B vs S, I think most people in that world would have the attitude that Bruce Wayne had, that all this death and destruction was the result of these gods fighting in the sky and "They all did it". I just don't buy statues being built to this guy. Celebrity worship by some, sure.

But still, MoS and B vs S did okay, But I think it's significant how much of B vs S's success was right in the early days and then a tremendous dropoff which I also think led directly to the flop that was "Justice League". I work retail and get a chance to talk to people buying movies like, recently, Thor: Ragnarok and I often drop a Justice League reference. The feedback I get tends to be either that they didn't see JL because the two that had gone before were two strikes and out- not gonna be any third strike- or they almost didn't go see it because they assumed based on the previous two that it would be more of the same but they decided to go see it anyway and we're rather surprised that it was fun.

And I say to those type of people that Snyder is gone. I know people are use to MCU 'house style' films where regardless of the creative staff involved, the product is usually more or less the same, but, for movies, a change in director usually leads to a change in tone, cinematography, well, everything.

"Thor: Ragnarok" and "Black Panther" are hardly the same style. Marvel has leaned more and more towards comedy but then again, I don't want to be one of these Oscar committee type of people that has loads of fun watching a comedy and then thumbs their noses like comedies were some inferior genre.

I think the problem with a lot of people regarding "Snyder is gone now. So what's the problem?" is that the entire foundation is his. Where the entire foundation of Marvel was built on Iron-Man, which most people loved, they feel the entire foundation of the DCEU is a Jonathan Kent who says maybe it's okay to let a busload of kids die and a Superman who would likely really be thought of as the guy who helped destroy half a city and kill thousands [Yes, I know that's not what really happened but I'm saying I think that's what half the world's population and most of the surviving population of Metropolis would think 'cause we're irrational creatures and that seems to also be how half the movie going audience sees it too]. So no matter what they do in the future, even if Cavill is the classic Superman from now on, I suspect that background sours everything for a lot of people.

Of course, they could just drop the idea that the DCEU has to be built around Superman or Batman. Marvel hit the jackpot with Iron-Man doing so well and somewhat building on him. But the DCEU's IM is Wonder Woman. They could build around her once they get her right outside of Patty Jenkins directing.

[Midvillian1322]

It does seem to me that, with the exception of "Justice League", the DC movies have done quite well and only sometimes seem like they didn't when you compare them to the Marvel movies and mostly to the biggest Marvel movies.



As far as the last sentence, the unfortunate thing is that box office results is precisely what movie studios pin decisions on. How MoS and B vs S will be looked upon in the future is guesswork and preference. I don't think Iron-Man, Iron-Man 3, the second and third Captain America movies, the Avengers and a slew of other Marvel movies are going to be soon forgotten. Nor do I think the Guardians movies or Ant-Man will soon be forgotten or even Thor: Ragnarok and definitely not the Black Panther. The first Captain America movie may not be as admired as the other two but it really deserves to be remembered in my opinion. To be sure, there are some mostly forgotten ones like the Incredible Hulk and Thor. I'm not saying they deserve to be forgotten but they didn't do as well.

I don't think any of the DC movies deserve to be forgotten either except for maybe the Justice League. I loved it but, other than the idea of these heroes appearing together, it didn't have much. Suicide Squad was okay, kind of fun and kind of serious, certainly middle of the road. Wonder Woman was phenomenal. "Man of Steel" is underrated. It glorifies the violence way too much in the last half hour or so. Contrast it to the Avengers which focuses on the heroes saving people as opposed to focusing on the destruction itself. But it's very good other than that. While the death of Jonathan Kent is nonsensical in one way, it serves a plot point about how totally Clark trusted him in the end, that he was that sure his father was right that he even allowed him to make that sacrifice and that had just argued and Clark had said Jonathan wasn't his father but screams "Dad" at the moment of truth. And Jonathan's "paranoia" was not paranoia. It would have been in the four color world of previous movies. But in a realistic Post September 11, 2001 world of bigotry and an attitude that "If one of them did it, they all did it", the "ultimate immigrant" if revealed publicly would have been feared and hated unless it was at exactly the right time that he revealed himself.

But I digress. At the beginning of B vs S, I think most people in that world would have the attitude that Bruce Wayne had, that all this death and destruction was the result of these gods fighting in the sky and "They all did it". I just don't buy statues being built to this guy. Celebrity worship by some, sure.

But still, MoS and B vs S did okay, But I think it's significant how much of B vs S's success was right in the early days and then a tremendous dropoff which I also think led directly to the flop that was "Justice League". I work retail and get a chance to talk to people buying movies like, recently, Thor: Ragnarok and I often drop a Justice League reference. The feedback I get tends to be either that they didn't see JL because the two that had gone before were two strikes and out- not gonna be any third strike- or they almost didn't go see it because they assumed based on the previous two that it would be more of the same but they decided to go see it anyway and we're rather surprised that it was fun.



"Thor: Ragnarok" and "Black Panther" are hardly the same style. Marvel has leaned more and more towards comedy but then again, I don't want to be one of these Oscar committee type of people that has loads of fun watching a comedy and then thumbs their noses like comedies were some inferior genre.

I think the problem with a lot of people regarding "Snyder is gone now. So what's the problem?" is that the entire foundation is his. Where the entire foundation of Marvel was built on Iron-Man, which most people loved, they feel the entire foundation of the DCEU is a Jonathan Kent who says maybe it's okay to let a busload of kids die and a Superman who would likely really be thought of as the guy who helped destroy half a city and kill thousands [Yes, I know that's not what really happened but I'm saying I think that's what half the world's population and most of the surviving population of Metropolis would think 'cause we're irrational creatures and that seems to also be how half the movie going audience sees it too]. So no matter what they do in the future, even if Cavill is the classic Superman from now on, I suspect that background sours everything for a lot of people.

Of course, they could just drop the idea that the DCEU has to be built around Superman or Batman. Marvel hit the jackpot with Iron-Man doing so well and somewhat building on him. But the DCEU's IM is Wonder Woman. They could build around her once they get her right outside of Patty Jenkins directing.

The DCEU is built upon a Johnthan Kent Who says maybe it's ok to let a bus load of kids die. That's actually a perfect way to put it but I don't think it has to be. They just take a page from Fox and the Xmen movies. Move forward with the DCEU but pick and choose what you keep and what you pretend never happened. Clearly WW keep, Have Canvill PLAY superman like he did in Justice league and just ignore MoS and BvS. Don't say they never happened but never mention them or they're event again. Recast Lex for gods sake, he just shows up and ruins my perfectly good deathstrome scene. Afflek doesn't sound committed so recast and use Matt Reeves movies as a jumping point. If Mamoas Aquaman is a hit keep him if not just drop the character for awhile. Same for the Flash and his Flashpoint movie. Good news the only Bad guys that were wasted were Doomsday and Steppenwolf who a lot of comic fans had to Google. Lex can be recast and Joker hasn't had enough screen time to know how people feel about him.

JUSTICE League makes it look like all the bad reviews of the previous movies that weren't WW had a toll. So you have to make these new batch of movies stand apart from the old ones so the people who stayed away from Justice League come back.


I'm still excited for Aquaman. I'm a big Jason Mamoa fan and James Wan is a solid director. Can't wait for a trailer.

[Powerboy]

The DCEU is built upon a Johnthan Kent Who says maybe it's ok to let a bus load of kids die. That's actually a perfect way to put it but I don't think it has to be. They just take a page from Fox and the Xmen movies. Move forward with the DCEU but pick and choose what you keep and what you pretend never happened. Clearly WW keep, Have Canvill PLAY superman like he did in Justice league and just ignore MoS and BvS. Don't say they never happened but never mention them or they're event again. Recast Lex for gods sake, he just shows up and ruins my perfectly good deathstrome scene. Afflek doesn't sound committed so recast and use Matt Reeves movies as a jumping point. If Mamoas Aquaman is a hit keep him if not just drop the character for awhile. Same for the Flash and his Flashpoint movie. Good news the only Bad guys that were wasted were Doomsday and Steppenwolf who a lot of comic fans had to Google. Lex can be recast and Joker hasn't had enough screen time to know how people feel about him.

JUSTICE League makes it look like all the bad reviews of the previous movies that weren't WW had a toll. So you have to make these new batch of movies stand apart from the old ones so the people who stayed away from Justice League come back.


I'm still excited for Aquaman. I'm a big Jason Mamoa fan and James Wan is a solid director. Can't wait for a trailer.

I agree with most of this.

Give Affleck his choice of whether to stay or go just so long as he makes a final decision in time to get a good replacement if the answer is that he's leaving.

Keep Cavill, yes. He may be the best Superman ever and that is saying a lot for me because I love the George Reeves Superman but Cavill, when he's playing the fully formed Superman, beats them all.

I do like a lot of things about MoS and B vs S. But, honestly, that "X-Men: Days of Future Past" idea is exactly what they should use part of Flashpoint for. Imagine the Flash visiting the Kents before that "Maybe" remark and having a scene where he tells Jonathan what his son will become. Imagine refilming that scene with Jonathan played by Costner instead of saying "Maybe" saying, "Of course you should have saved them." Then going on with the rest of the speech but maybe implying he needs to learn to do such things without being seen doing them until the time is right, just be more subtle about it. Imagine the fight in the city but Superman is constantly trying to save people and trying to move the fight out of the city. Whether he always succeeds is irrelevant, just that he is clearly thinking first and foremost about the well-being of others. Killing Zod I actually have no problem with. It should be the example that nobody, not even Superman, can avoid every hard decision and it's consequences. Even he had a no-win scenario once. But showing him doing everything he could do to save people allows him to earn that one event and makes us believe how desperately he wanted to avoid it. And show that it haunts him.

And maybe show enough of a new version of B vs S that maybe Batman isn't bats**t crazy and that he and Superman have a conflict but not necessarily to the point Batman is trying to kill him.

You don't need to spend half the movie on this. Really just have the Flash go back in time and then show *ahem" flash forwards, glimpses of how everything is changing because of the Flash going back in time.

Jesse Eisenberg? Okay, I know it's not really going to happen but, Merciful Minerva, please recast and get rid of this obnoxious little twit version, this guy who is supposed to be Lex Luthor but I swear that, while watching, I genuinely kept forgetting he was Luthor and kept thinking he was supposed to be the Joker or the Riddler, I mean, if the Joker or the Riddler were whiny little twits. And it's not for any of the reasons Eisenberg or Snyder have made up to rationalize why people hate Eisenberg's "Luthor". It's not because hes too young. I loved Rosenbaum's Luthor. It's because I perceive Eisenberg's Luthor as someone that the first thing Deadshot would do is shoot him dead because he's an unstable mental case.

[LifeIsILL]

Marvel movies follow the trajectory of the comics (for the most part) which allows them to be very successful, and more importantly, much more organized.

For example, the Avengers fought Loki in their early comic issues so they brought that to screen. Captain America's early comics was fighting Hitler and Red Skull so they also brought that live to screen.

The Justice League fought Despero and Starro when they were first formed but what does Snyder and WB do? Skip all that and jump straight to....Darkseid.

The Suicide Squad's first missions were to take out middle-eastern terrorist organizations and Russian spies but WB wants to go all the way with Joker and.....some stupid witch.

And it doesn't seem like they're learning from their mistakes. They will probably make 2 more good films in Aquaman and Shazam but the rest just seems like a mess.

[Agent Z]

Marvel movies follow the trajectory of the comics (for the most part) which allows them to be very successful, and more importantly, much more organized.

For example, the Avengers fought Loki in their early comic issues so they brought that to screen. Captain America's early comics was fighting Hitler and Red Skull so they also brought that live to screen.

The Justice League fought Despero and Starro when they were first formed but what does Snyder and WB do? Skip all that and jump straight to....Darkseid.

The Suicide Squad's first missions were to take out middle-eastern terrorist organizations and Russian spies but WB wants to go all the way with Joker and.....some stupid witch.

And it doesn't seem like they're learning from their mistakes. They will probably make 2 more good films in Aquaman and Shazam but the rest just seems like a mess.

Snyder didn't cut to Darkseid. And adaptations have changed who the League's first villain is before. In the DCAU, it was the White Martians. In Smallville, it was Luthor.

[JKtheMac]

Marvel movies follow the trajectory of the comics (for the most part) which allows them to be very successful, and more importantly, much more organized.

For example, the Avengers fought Loki in their early comic issues so they brought that to screen. Captain America's early comics was fighting Hitler and Red Skull so they also brought that live to screen.

This might make them simpler and it might play to a comic audience as reverential, but I think it is a stretch to suggest this is somehow a key to their success. Perhaps the reason they seem to work for you is because the classic villains were designed with the heroes in mind. Over their time in the comics they came to compliment and act as foils for the heroes in a way that could then be adapted for the movies.

Self-evidently movies are not comics, so a certain amount of distillation of who the various characters and villains are, has to happen. For me the more modern DC movies have rarely managed this. They have chosen specific visions for the characters rather than attempting to capture the essence of the character. They have reached for some intangible essence of coolness and seriousness that the characters don’t necessarily support. This is why I am also not a fan of Nolan in general, who is very serious in all of his movies. He chooses a very specific Batman and a very specific Gotham to surround him. This search for serious tone and meaningful content goes too far for me regardless of the appropriateness of the villains.

It also seems backwards looking and fan serving, seeking to speak to a nostalgic crowd that want the Batman they read in their youth. Again a very specific Batman and surrounding characters from a very specific era of comics and an era somewhat out of step with modern movies in my opinion. Even Wonder Woman suffers from this despite having a very appropriate choice of villain. It’s a deep and meaningful Wonder Woman, with a touch too much weight on the character’s shoulders.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I probably keep the DCEU but focus more character interactions/team-ups than an overarching plot right now.