Should they stop making DC movies?

[Batmaniac]

No, never. But they need to take a major step back, seriously re-evaluate what they're doing, and get their house in order.

[AJBopp]

No, never. But they need to take a major step back, seriously re-evaluate what they're doing, and get their house in order.

I agree with this, but at this point I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for figuring out what this means.

This probably belongs in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but WB has a significant disadvantage in that their superhero characters are largely less interesting than Marvel's, particularly when interacting as a group. They always have been. As such, it's a pretty big challenge to figure out what "interesting" characteristics they can be re-invented with that people actually want to see.

I am convinced it can be done. But it may take a few swings and misses to get there. People think of Marvel heroes as characters, because they've always been written that way. They think of DC heroes as costumes. Because they've always been written that way, despite great efforts to turn that around in the comics, it's largely unchanged. Even in some of my favorites - Wolfman's Titan's, for example - this was still largely true.

I would support my theory that DC heroes are thought of as costumes by many of the comments in the two years leading up to the JL movie. Predictions were wild that it could hit $2 billion because it was the first time the three greatest heroes would be live on screen together. Little thought at all was given to how important the story had to be among the fans. It was sufficient, they thought, that the costumes were there.

[XPac]

No, They need to find the best and most talented people to helm their movies. WB should never have given zack snyder the big responsibility of DC movies. there was nothing in his resume that showed he was up for it. He was no Christopher Nolan.
Another reason they should keep making DC movies is with X-Men at a 90% chance of going to Disney. comic book movies may be facing a monopoly of nothing more but action comedy movies. DC movies needs to be there to balance the equation.

In all fairness, some of marvels choices seemed a bit out of the box but worked.

Prior to Winter Soldiers, the Russo Brothers biggest hit was probably You, Me and Dupree. They've come a long way from that with Infinity War.

Was Man of Steel a red flat for Snyder? I'm not sure. The tone and direction were questionable... but strictly speaking I wouldn't say it was a bad movie. Though BvS and Justice League are a lot more flawed.

[Sandfall]

In all fairness, some of marvels choices seemed a bit out of the box but worked.

Prior to Winter Soldiers, the Russo Brothers biggest hit was probably You, Me and Dupree. They've come a long way from that with Infinity War.

.

Some may start of out of the box but the end is the same. And with the next slate of marvel movies all confirmed to be action-comedy. it will be good for DC to get their act together.

Was Man of Steel a red flat for Snyder? I'm not sure. The tone and direction were questionable... but strictly speaking I wouldn't say it was a bad movie. Though BvS and Justice League are a lot more flawed.

It was a Snyder movie through and through. the film would have been excellent if they removed many of the destructive fight scenes and made Superman somewhere in the lines of moody and optimistic than just moody.

[Osiris-Rex]

I agree with this, but at this point I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for figuring out what this means.

This probably belongs in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but WB has a significant disadvantage in that their superhero characters are largely less interesting than Marvel's, particularly when interacting as a group. They always have been. As such, it's a pretty big challenge to figure out what "interesting" characteristics they can be re-invented with that people actually want to see.

I am convinced it can be done. But it may take a few swings and misses to get there. People think of Marvel heroes as characters, because they've always been written that way. They think of DC heroes as costumes. Because they've always been written that way, despite great efforts to turn that around in the comics, it's largely unchanged. Even in some of my favorites - Wolfman's Titan's, for example - this was still largely true.

I would support my theory that DC heroes are thought of as costumes by many of the comments in the two years leading up to the JL movie. Predictions were wild that it could hit $2 billion because it was the first time the three greatest heroes would be live on screen together. Little thought at all was given to how important the story had to be among the fans. It was sufficient, they thought, that the costumes were there.

The CW shows are doing just fine making the characters be more than just costumes. One reason the CW cross-over Crisis on Earth-X was so highly praised is because we got to know the characters before they were thrown together.
So I don't agree that DC is just costumes. WB just needs movie directors that thinks the characters are more than just costumes. Set pieces in an action movie. Patty Jenkins made Wonder Woman more than just a costume. And
guess what, it was a hit both critically and financially. Beloved by all except maybe a few edgelords.

[AJBopp]

The CW shows are doing just fine making the characters be more than just costumes. One reason the CW cross-over Crisis on Earth-X was so highly praised is because we got to know the characters before they were thrown together.
So I don't agree that DC is just costumes. WB just needs movie directors that thinks the characters are more than just costumes. Set pieces in an action movie. Patty Jenkins made Wonder Woman more than just a costume. And
guess what, it was a hit both critically and financially. Beloved by all except maybe a few edgelords.

I think the expectations for CW shows are lowered quite a bit from major motion pictures.

I enjoy Flash and Supergirl. Gave up on Arrow and LoT quite awhile ago. I'd have to say that at best the characterizations on CW shows are superficial, at worst wildly inconsistent. But at the end of the day there's not much to distinguish Flash from "the fast guy" for your average casual viewer. The same is true for most of the characters, many of which are interchangeable between shows (quick...which character do I mean by "the funny science person"?)

By and large, that's not true with Marvel characters. Most casual observers can name some personality or character traits that distinguish Captain America from Iron Man beyond "the shield guy."

Wonder Woman is more than just a costume, and is exactly the sort of character I was talking about when I said it would take a few swings and misses before getting some of them right.

[AnakinFlair]

The problem is the studio. They hire a director with a vision, give him carte blanche to run with it, then when they see the dailies they panic because it's not what some suite at Warner Brothers wants to see and they start interfering. The result is a movie that is a mess tonally that has no flow to it due to the editing and is not enjoyed by the people at large. They did it with Batman v Superman, they did it with Suicide Squad, they did it with Justice League. Hell, I think they even interfered with Wonder Woman, if memory serves. They need to get their creative teams in a room and map out a firm plan, hire directors and let them do their thing, and let the movies sink or swim on their merits instead of getting involved in the eleventh hour and cutting them to hell.

[Carabas]

The problem is the studio. They hire a director with a vision, give him carte blanche to run with it, then when they see the dailies they panic because it's not what some suite at Warner Brothers wants to see and they start interfering. The result is a movie that is a mess tonally that has no flow to it due to the editing and is not enjoyed by the people at large. They did it with Batman v Superman, they did it with Suicide Squad, they did it with Justice League. Hell, I think they even interfered with Wonder Woman, if memory serves. They need to get their creative teams in a room and map out a firm plan, hire directors and let them do their thing, and let the movies sink or swim on their merits instead of getting involved in the eleventh hour and cutting them to hell.

Usually the problem seems more like "But we didn't want a three hour movie, we wanted a 2 hour movie. Where are the scissors?"

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I agree with this, but at this point I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for figuring out what this means.

This probably belongs in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but WB has a significant disadvantage in that their superhero characters are largely less interesting than Marvel's, particularly when interacting as a group. They always have been. As such, it's a pretty big challenge to figure out what "interesting" characteristics they can be re-invented with that people actually want to see.

I am convinced it can be done. But it may take a few swings and misses to get there. People think of Marvel heroes as characters, because they've always been written that way. They think of DC heroes as costumes. Because they've always been written that way, despite great efforts to turn that around in the comics, it's largely unchanged. Even in some of my favorites - Wolfman's Titan's, for example - this was still largely true.

I would support my theory that DC heroes are thought of as costumes by many of the comments in the two years leading up to the JL movie. Predictions were wild that it could hit $2 billion because it was the first time the three greatest heroes would be live on screen together. Little thought at all was given to how important the story had to be among the fans. It was sufficient, they thought, that the costumes were there.

Also the marvel heroes used in films weren't exactly public knowledge so they had more freedom. Versus Superman who was a public icon so whatever you did it was gonna ruffle somebody's feathers.

I don't disagree about DC's characters being less character driven than Marvel's but Film is more plot driven than TV so i don't think they are at that much of a disadvantage.

"Structure is character, character is structure" Robert McKee screenwriting legend.

[Osiris-Rex]

I think the expectations for CW shows are lowered quite a bit from major motion pictures.

I don't follow your logic. A character in a character no matter the medium.

I enjoy Flash and Supergirl. Gave up on Arrow and LoT quite awhile ago. I'd have to say that at best the characterizations on CW shows are superficial, at worst wildly inconsistent. But at the end of the day there's not much to distinguish Flash from "the fast guy" for your average casual viewer. The same is true for most of the characters, many of which are interchangeable between shows (quick...which character do I mean by "the funny science person"?)

By and large, that's not true with Marvel characters. Most casual observers can name some personality or character traits that distinguish Captain America from Iron Man beyond "the shield guy."

So there is nothing that distinguishes that fast guy from that flying girl? Or that fast guy from that shape shifting guy. Or that flying girl from that guy that shoots arrows? They are all the same character with the only difference the costumes?

[Osiris-Rex]

Also the marvel heroes used in films weren't exactly public knowledge so they had more freedom. Versus Superman who was a public icon so whatever you did it was gonna ruffle somebody's feathers.

I don't disagree about DC's characters being less character driven than Marvel's but Film is more plot driven than TV so i don't think they are at that much of a disadvantage.

"Structure is character, character is structure" Robert McKee screenwriting legend.

I would think TV would be more plot driven than films because TV doesn't have the money to pad out scenes with special effects extravaganzas. So they have to spend more time talking to each other on TV.

[DrNewGod]

The problem is the studio. They hire a director with a vision, give him carte blanche to run with it, then when they see the dailies they panic because it's not what some suite at Warner Brothers wants to see and they start interfering. The result is a movie that is a mess tonally that has no flow to it due to the editing and is not enjoyed by the people at large. They did it with Batman v Superman, they did it with Suicide Squad, they did it with Justice League. Hell, I think they even interfered with Wonder Woman, if memory serves. They need to get their creative teams in a room and map out a firm plan, hire directors and let them do their thing, and let the movies sink or swim on their merits instead of getting involved in the eleventh hour and cutting them to hell.

There's a suspicion I can't escape. The MCU's course (charted before The Mouse showed up) was set by people that loved the comics. The DCEU's course was set by WB people who only saw IP.

[JKtheMac]

There's a suspicion I can't escape. The MCU's course (charted before The Mouse showed up) was set by people that loved the comics. The DCEU's course was set by WB people who only saw IP.

Yes. This is exactly the difference. It is nothing to do with the rush to combine characters or the relative merits of the properties, it is entirely down to how the movies were overseen.

When you sit down to bring an established character to the screen there are lots of ways you can do it. Take the original Superman movie. A lot of that movie is spent establishing why we should care about Kent. The cinematography in the first third draws on classic imagery from the history of cinema to make us feel like we really know him and his family. Watch the funeral scene for example. It is evocative, classic and beautiful. Almost an entirely different movie to the later scenes. The director, Richard Donner, isn’t “bringing a bold new vision” or “introducing us to a familiar figure in a way you might find surprising”. He is lovingly bringing us into a world we are all vaguely familiar with and expanding upon it in a way that is welcoming and comfortable.

Too often, large properties are handed to the wrong people, more keen on bringing their own vision than realising the one that suits the characters.

[Michael Watkins]

Zack Snyder's vignette style over substance style was a poor fit. yeah he was able to visually copy a lot of scenes from the books. but it was soulless. the characters, with the exception of Wonder Woman (in her solo film) were not allowed a full range of emotion. flash was always quippy. bruce and cyborg were always broody. aquaman was always in kegger mode. and don't get me started on "mister hope." did he really have to be a more credible threat to the Justice League than Steppenwolf?

[Kusanagi]

If the next Wonder Woman pretended none of the rest of the DCEU existed I wouldn't shed a tear.

I wouldn't be against them trying again further (years) down the line. Establish the Wonder Woman brand, maybe reboot Batman and Supes, or maybe go the Marvel route with untested characters, in either case make successful solo movies THEN think about working in the epic conjoined universe.