Why are Harley and Ivy not considered villains anymore?

[KurtW95]

Given today’s issue of Batman and the big revelation or new classification as it were about Poison Ivy, I started to think about how characters like her and Ivy have sort of stopped being seen as villains for no reason at all. They’ve still done horrible things. They haven’t really atoned for it, but they’re supposed to be seen as anti-heroes at worse and superheroes at best. There’s no distinction between them and characters like Supergirl and Batgirl in DC’s animated series aimed at young girls. Harley Quinn was created as a character created to be a damaged individual obsessed with and in love with the Joker who would carry out terrible acts despite being abused by him. That was the core of her character. Then she became such a beloved character that the love sort of warped her into DC’s version of Deadpool with no semblance of the core traits she had when she was originally being written by Paul Dini and recognizing the Joker’s abuse. This may be seen by some as character development, but IMO that destroys the character. Without her obsession with the Joker, there is really nothing preventing her from going back to being a normal person. Then we Ivy. A character traditionally portrayed as a malevolent sociopath who cares for plants, but not humans. Then she had stints with the Birds of Prey and all is forgiven. We have today’s Batman issue. So, just like that we lose two of Batman’s only female villains. Catwoman has always been on again/off again good and bad, but these two were fairly consistent. And I ask, why? Is there a different standard we hold male villains to that we don’t give to female villains? Sure, you’ve seen male villains in the Batman mythos briefly turn good, but not like this.

[lucius121]

Given today’s issue of Batman and the big revelation or new classification as it were about Poison Ivy, I started to think about how characters like her and Ivy have sort of stopped being seen as villains for no reason at all. They’ve still done horrible things. They haven’t really atoned for it, but they’re supposed to be seen as anti-heroes at worse and superheroes at best. There’s no distinction between them and characters like Supergirl and Batgirl in DC’s animated series aimed at young girls. Harley Quinn was created as a character created to be a damaged individual obsessed with and in love with the Joker who would carry out terrible acts despite being abused by him. That was the core of her character. Then she became such a beloved character that the love sort of warped her into DC’s version of Deadpool with no semblance of the core traits she had when she was originally being written by Paul Dini and recognizing the Joker’s abuse. This may be seen by some as character development, but IMO that destroys the character. Without her obsession with the Joker, there is really nothing preventing her from going back to being a normal person. Then we Ivy. A character traditionally portrayed as a malevolent sociopath who cares for plants, but not humans. Then she had stints with the Birds of Prey and all is forgiven. We have today’s Batman issue. So, just like that we lose two of Batman’s only female villains. Catwoman has always been on again/off again good and bad, but these two were fairly consistent. And I ask, why? Is there a different standard we hold male villains to that we don’t give to female villains? Sure, you’ve seen male villains in the Batman mythos briefly turn good, but not like this.

I think they both worked well as villains to be honest but I can see why they changed, I can also see them changing back to villains again in the future, like Freeze and Riddler. Ivy is portrayed as a villain again in a book coming out next month in a fight against damage.

I totally disagree with you on the points about Harley though there is no way a character obsessed with the joker could have lasted this long. If she hadn't at least partially gotten over the joker than they would need to kill her off, tying her permanently to the joker would mean that she could only be in stories tied to the joker because he would be her sole focus. I see a lot of comments about how Harley's development is wrong and yet these same comments don't get applied to Dick Grayson, Superman or to the Joker himself all these characters have changed drastically since they were created and yet they were allowed to change so why is Harley's development so annoying for you?

DC super hero girls is cartoon aimed at children, it really bares no relevance on the comics and the character portrayals are more about merchandise sales than anything else.

[nonsense man]

Even though Ivy is a villian she only thinks about plants not about personal gain or anything self serving maybe that is why there is some sympathy for her. Maybe that is why at times they write her in that antihero role.

[JBatmanFan05]

This is a problem I have with DC and King. P.Ivy is always gonna be a villain to me.

DC needs to stop fighting it. She's long been a rogue and marketed as one. The end.

You can make her as complicated and sympathetic as whatever, but she's a villain.



Harley...I have no comment, not a big fan of her character outside of Dini's Mad Love.

[Alycat]

I have no idea and I think its dumb. You can make Ivy sympathetic and still be a villain and continue to push Harley/Ivy or whatever. is Talia seriously the only major female Bat-villain around still?

[Mistah K88]

Hmm...with Talia, haven't they made her more vicious? It's been a bit since I've read anything with her. Then again...has she EVER disagreed with her father's views? It seems Batman gave her leeway because she was hot.

As for Ivy, it's funny how she was originally created to be the bad girl to be compared to Catwoman's flip flopping, only to become less so. However, like MOST reformed baddies everything returns to the status quo sooner or later...so all you have to do is wait it out.

[Jackalope89]

Hmm...with Talia, haven't they made her more vicious? It's been a bit since I've read anything with her. Then again...has she EVER disagreed with her father's views? It seems Batman gave her leeway because she was hot.

As for Ivy, it's funny how she was originally created to be the bad girl to be compared to Catwoman's flip flopping, only to become less so. However, like MOST reformed baddies everything returns to the status quo sooner or later...so all you have to do is wait it out.

In Tower of Babel, she finally felt her father went too far.

That's about the only time, in canon at least, I can think of her disagreeing with daddy dearest.

[Rac7d*]

Even though Ivy is a villian she only thinks about plants not about personal gain or anything self serving maybe that is why there is some sympathy for her. Maybe that is why at times they write her in that antihero role.

As long as she values Plants more then human and kills people weather they be violent men or not she is a villain
no amount girl power or sympathy for harley can change that

[Rac7d*]

Hmm...with Talia, haven't they made her more vicious? It's been a bit since I've read anything with her. Then again...has she EVER disagreed with her father's views? It seems Batman gave her leeway because she was hot.

As for Ivy, it's funny how she was originally created to be the bad girl to be compared to Catwoman's flip flopping, only to become less so. However, like MOST reformed baddies everything returns to the status quo sooner or later...so all you have to do is wait it out.

she killed damian so she will never really recover from that

[InanimateCrbnRod]

I'm with you OP, All of their great female villains eventually become Heroes. With Poison Ivy's powerset she has the potential to be a terrifying villain, and she is never used to her full potential. The Arkham games did her the best. Harley is not as interesting outside of her tragic origin with Joker. Making the joker responsible for her mental issues by dropping her into joker chemicals also cheapens her backstory.

[DragonPiece]

Honestly, as long as it's written well, I don't have a problem making them anti heroes. It is weird the 3 big gotham female villains(not counting Talia) are all sorta heroes now though. Just means we need more.

[nonsense man]

I guess you can say batman has the magic touch on all those villianesses

[Aahz]

Villians that get popular enough to carry their own books usually become more anti-heroic.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Much like Venom, Harley at least is popular enough to be a anti-hero. Since Pam is her BFF, she's a long for the ride I guess.

[The World]

Eh people just tend to feel bad for female villains. They come off more sympathetic than men who do make up most of the violent criminals in the real world.