Why are Harley and Ivy not considered villains anymore?

[bat1987]

Very few changes in comics tend to stick, this will be no exception ofc.

[Nite-Wing]

Ivy is still very much a villain
Instances like Batman 43 are going to be very few and far between and the appearances in Damage is how she's viewed within the DCU at large
Same with Harley
I mean her status quo is a member of the suicide squad

[Ascended]

Harley's shift towards anti-heroism doesn't bother me. That's been a very long time developing and has happened fairly organically. Hell, it began in her very first solo title with the Dodsons. In her current book she's more heroic than she is a villain, even if her particular brand of "heroism" leaves a higher body count than some villains ever achieve. She's worked with several heroes who (grudgingly) didn't bring her in. Her time with the Squad can be seen as her atoning for her past crimes. She's still a hyper-violent bucket of crazy, but her aim is a lot better these days. And I wouldn't change a thing about any of it. I vastly prefer Harley as she is now.

Ivy? I think DC wants to see her make the same jump from villainy to anti-heroism. But that feels far more artificial and forced than Harley's evolution and I don't expect it to stick.

[WonderScott]

Honestly, I'm annoyed that we may lose another powerful female villainess, but at the same time she's an interesting character to lead into and explore in this Sanctuary title concept. Pamela Isley, as she's written most recently, is emotionally complex. (That doesn't mean that I don't still miss the Poison Ivy from Batman: The Animated Series though.)

[DevilBat66]

Harley's character progression from The Joker's abused gf into a powerful independent anti-heroine is why she has become one of my favorite DC characters. If she was still The Joker's punching bag, I wouldn't give a crap about her and I doubt hardly anyone else would except for misogynistic fanboys that get there jollies outta that abusive stockholm syndrome stuff.

Poison Ivy is more of a full-on villain to me. I don't mind her relationship with Harley but I don't particularly care for her becoming an anti-hero. The Bat fam should be trying to bring her in, not team up with her.

[Frontier]

Harley's shift towards anti-heroism doesn't bother me. That's been a very long time developing and has happened fairly organically. Hell, it began in her very first solo title with the Dodsons. In her current book she's more heroic than she is a villain, even if her particular brand of "heroism" leaves a higher body count than some villains ever achieve. She's worked with several heroes who (grudgingly) didn't bring her in. Her time with the Squad can be seen as her atoning for her past crimes. She's still a hyper-violent bucket of crazy, but her aim is a lot better these days. And I wouldn't change a thing about any of it. I vastly prefer Harley as she is now.

I don't know, from what I remember about Harley in the Dodson run she was running her own gang of thugs to take over Gotham and going on crime spree's with Ivy.

I mean, she had a few moments of altruism here and there (usually when it came to something romantic), but she was still a dangerous criminal.

[Osiris-Rex]

I think that DC saw how well it worked with Catwoman to turn her from a full time villain to more of an anti-hero and came to the conclusion that should be the mold for all female villains.
It's sort of ironic that in DC Super Hero Girls, Catwoman is more of a villain than Harley and Ivy. Or at least not as good and heroic as they are.

[Nite-Wing]

I think that DC saw how well it worked with Catwoman to turn her from a full time villain to more of an anti-hero and came to the conclusion that should be the mold for all female villains.
It's sort of ironic that in DC Super Hero Girls, Catwoman is more of a villain than Harley and Ivy. Or at least not as good and heroic as they are.

*because Selina isn't as popular as Harley and Ivy*

Technically If Selina weren't getting married to Bruce now she would probably go back to being a villain
The difference between the way Selina is regarded for being a thief and the way the Rogues for the Flash are regarded is kinda funny

[mathew101281]

Alot of it has to do with the fact we don't have archetypes for female villains that aren't rooted old sexist points of view. That causes creators to either...

1. Put females in male rolls, which can work, but often requires the female character to abandon a lot of her more "feminine" characteristics. This can sometimes make her less relatable to female readers.

2. Turn them into antiheroes.

[kjn]

Another factor is that there used to be a split in popular media, where bad girls were allowed to be sexy, while good girls were forced to be "good". While still present, it's a lot weaker nowadays. The result was that you had characters like Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Emma Frost (Marvel), et c. But they had little reason for their villainy out-of-story and gained lots of unresolved sexual tension to the heroes. So when heroines were allowed to be and act sexy too, there was little reason to keep them around as straight villains.

Note also that Catwoman is a gentle(wo)man thief, and they almost always are depicted as stylish and admirable in some way. And Harley Quinn was depicted as both victim and criminal. Poison Ivy was also given some clear rational motivation as a criminal, outside of animus against the hero. In that, she can be compared to Magneto (who often is depicted as a noble character).

[Restingvoice]

Their character allows them to be more sympathetic compared to other Arkham Inmates.
Harley started as a goofy sidekick and abused girlfriend. Naturally, people who like her would want her to escape the abuse, and since the reason she became a villain in the first place is The Joker, is there a reason why she should stay a villain?
Ivy is an ecoterrorist who wants to save plants. A lot of people want to save the earth, even when they don't agree with the method. Then she has a relationship with Harley, making both of their supporters join into one.
Add Catwoman fans when Gotham City Sirens happened, and the number of fans who enjoy them as protagonists now tripled.

Other sympathetic Arkham Inmates who are males are Killer Croc, who has a skin condition and his own people to protect, Mr. Freeze with his wife, and Clayface who recently even become a hero. So it's not just female villains.

Like for example, sometimes wonder why Mr. Freeze is still a villain since his crime motivation is easy to solve with Wayne money.

As for why Harley and Ivy in particular soar in popularity in comparison to Killer Croc, Clayface, and Mr. Freeze, I guess their attractiveness, style and sexuality do play a part in it, so they have feminist fans and LGBT fans on top of the regular fans, male or female, for each of them, and for Gotham City Sirens as a whole, and from their appearance in other media. That's a lot.

Anyway, while I enjoy their villain side, what happened so far is a natural story progression supported by fans demand. Considering that they're both mental patients, it should be a progress if Batman villains becoming good.

Edit: Why does this site log me out so quick?!

[SiegePerilous02]

Harley being redeemable has a little more weight than Ivy. She was created in Batman the Animated Series, so the stories that created and defined her got more freedom from the mainstream DC continuity that reboots every other week with multiple authors jumping in to put their stamp on the character. Harley's creators had control of her for many years in a medium that reached a far bigger audience, and in that she was portrayed in a sympathetic light with hope for redemption, most notably in Mad Love and Harley's Holiday. Even so, I don't think even DCAU Harley lends herself to anti-hero status if we look at her entire catalog of appearances. She helped the Joker twist Tim Drake's mind, looked on with a big grin on her face as he prepared drill into Gordon's skull, and even lashed back against Mr. J, a couple times inflicting actual bodily harm, when she was angry...and he didn't seem to hold it against her. I don't buy that Harley is totally a victim there, there is an innate darkness in her that a few therapy sessions with the Joker didn't create. Painting her a total victim and therefore prime material for kooky anti-hero seeking redemption status doesn't entirely work. I feel like it's a view of the character that's less complex.

Ivy is even more all over the map. She was created because Catwoman was too sympathetic, so right from the word go we have the desire to create a villainous woman. Yeah, Gaiman got a hold of her and made her more sympathetic (while at the same time frightening) in his portrayal, but the DCAU version made a bigger impact. And succeeded in revamping her into a villain who happened to be the only female villain in Gotham (and the most powerful one to boot) who had no romantic interest in Batman or the Joker. And was just as fearsome and formidable as the male villains. She wasn't a complete, unsympathetic monster (I don't view any of the rogues except the Joker and maybe the Scarecrow as being that, and even DCAU Crane at least had some affection for Harley and that one female student of his in the annual written by Dini where he tries to become a legit teacher again), but she definitely wasn't an anti-hero. And she was better for Harley than the Joker, but not by much.

Yeah, there have been depictions of her being moved to anti-hero or full blown hero status. Outside of Rucka's use of her (which I can still see DCAU Ivy doing), I don't really care at all. They don't interest me as much. I like Ivy scary because we have so few female villains that are scary, especially in the Bat-Verse. If DC were interested in filling the void by pushing another female villain in the Bat-universe, I think they would do it by now. And are fans clamoring for it either? Who draws a bigger crowd, Ivy or Jane Doe?

[LordUltimus]

Harley's still treated as a villain whenever she's on the Suicide Squad.

[Ascended]

I don't know, from what I remember about Harley in the Dodson run she was running her own gang of thugs to take over Gotham and going on crime spree's with Ivy.

I mean, she had a few moments of altruism here and there (usually when it came to something romantic), but she was still a dangerous criminal.

Oh, it was absolutely just a few moments here and there. But isn't that how these things start? Maybe I'm being a little too generous by saying that her turn began that far back, but I will maintain that the seeds were there.

And she certainly was a dangerous criminal. She's still dangerous. But now she's trying to clean up New York (or at least her little stretch of Coney) instead of blowing up toy stores because they sold out of Joker's favorite whoopie cushion.

[GamerSlyRatchet]

I don't know, from what I remember about Harley in the Dodson run she was running her own gang of thugs to take over Gotham and going on crime spree's with Ivy.

I mean, she had a few moments of altruism here and there (usually when it came to something romantic), but she was still a dangerous criminal.

Honestly, that's my favorite take on her leaving Joker. If she really wants to get even with him, she'd try and become a better clown crime lord than he ever was. Maybe not as far gone as him, but still.

Even in her origin, she was still self-interested and planned on exploiting her patients for fame and profit.

Other sympathetic Arkham Inmates who are males are Killer Croc, who has a skin condition and his own people to protect, Mr. Freeze with his wife, and Clayface who recently even become a hero. So it's not just female villains.

Killer Croc becomes Batman's ally in Earth One, but yeah. Shame about Clayface.

I'm honestly surprised Mr. Freeze hasn't been made into an anti-hero as well. He's fairly popular and really has no motivation for malice beyond saving his wife. We can always just ignore the garbage Snyder tried to peddle in the Nu52.