Mighty Thor #705 *Spoliers*

[numberthirty]

The story never conclusively says that Uru metal isn't made of big-bang hardened blue cheese either. The stretch is to suggest the rules have changed. Nothing suggests this. In order to make the claim one would need to point to textual evidence. The enchantment has always been the gatekeeper of who can lift it. Ever since those words were placed upon it.

Did you just miss where the enchantment clearly changed even though no one changed it?

[numberthirty]

Let alone that we have clearly seen that the hammer just did what it wanted at one point.

To set that aside because it doesn't fit into the assertion that it is entirely the enchantment doesn't jibe.

[JKtheMac]

Did you just miss where the enchantment clearly changed even though no one changed it?

No I didn't but to suggest the storm changed it is also a stretch, and you may have noticed the words changed once the hammer began to be lifted by a worthy woman. There are a number of possibilities here without reaching for explanations not supported by the text. For example, it is entirely possible that this would have happened whenever a worthy woman lifted it.

Nothing in that scene, even when the opportunity of an extended flashback was available, suggests the storm can change the enchantment. My pet theory is still Freyja meddling, but that isn't 'necessary'.

[numberthirty]

No I didn't but to suggest the storm changed it is also a stretch, and you may have noticed the words changed once the hammer began to be lifted by a worthy woman. There are a number of possibilities here without reaching for explanations not supported by the text. For example, it is entirely possible that this would have happened whenever a worthy woman lifted it.

Nothing in that scene, even when the opportunity of an extended flashback was available, suggests the storm can change the enchantment.

Any more than it suggests what you are saying is the case.

It changed for a reason. We do not know what that reason is. You clearly had to create a "What If?", and then still had to admit that it was just "Entirely Possible".

Could be. That doesn't mean that it has been established as fact.

[JKtheMac]

Any more than it suggests what you are saying is the case.

It changed for a reason. We do not know what that reason is. You clearly had to create a "What If?", and then still had to admit that it was just "Entirely Possible".

Could be. That doesn't mean that it has been established as fact.

You missed my edit, but my point is simple. We have no reason to suspect the storm, and it contradicts the story we have been given to suggest this. The storm is trapped inside the enchantment.

I give you that the blurred distant text in this issue does suggest 'she' before it is lifted (I hadn't zoomed in until today). That may be an error, or it may suggest tampering, but it would go against the story logic that worthiness is decided upon a whim of a storm. Aaron may not be afraid to retcon things but he will hardly undermine his own story. It is quite important that Jane was objectively worthy.

[numberthirty]

Aaron may not be afraid to retcon things but he will hardly undermine his own story. It is quite important that Jane was objectively worthy.

Aaron's story includes the secret history of the hammer. Which is before he shows you the hammer with a will of it's own in the "B.C." Avengers.

To ignore that fact because it doesn't fit into what you want to be the case doesn't make much sense.

[JKtheMac]

Aaron's story includes the secret history of the hammer. Which is before he shows you the hammer with a will of it's own in the "B.C." Avengers.

To ignore that fact because it doesn't fit into what you want to be the case doesn't make much sense.

You keep claiming I am somehow the one stretching the facts. I am not. Just because the hammer is shown to be wilful does not mean that the rules of the enchantment have changed. These are not equal assertions. One is established canon that doubly supports this story and its entire premise. The other is a fan theory that doesn't make any sense but helped some people that wanted another reason for Odinson to be unable to lift it and Odin himself to be unable to. That was pure speculation.

The reason it gained traction was that it was also partly based upon Jane's suspicion of the hammer's sentience, but that has proved to be another issue entirely. Odinson's unworthiness has been explored elsewhere and discussed to death elsewhere too. Odin's failure to lift it has not been totally explored yet. I can guarantee you that neither of those are related to the storm.

The only two theories I think hold water right now are that the enchantment is flexible with gender (very probable) or that Freyja meddled with the enchantment (a possibility but even this isn't a major shift, just an introduction of flexibility.) The idea that anything other than the enchantment decides would fundamentally effect the story in a negative way, as well as totally undermine all of canon.

[numberthirty]

You keep claiming I am somehow the one stretching the facts. I am not. Just because the hammer is shown to be wilful does not mean that the rules of the enchantment have changed. These are not equal assertions. One is established canon that doubly supports this story and its entire premise. The other is a fan theory that doesn't make any sense but helped some people that wanted another reason for Odinson to be unable to lift it and Odin himself to be unable to. That was pure speculation.

"Established Canon" that we just found out was only part of the story.

If someone wants to keep holding on to "Established Cannon"? Their call.

[JKtheMac]

"Established Canon" that we just found out was only part of the story.

If someone wants to keep holding on to "Established Cannon"? Their call.

You are the one rewriting the book as written not me. I am not clinging to anything I am applying logic. Story structure logic, not internal comic book logic. I have made it quite clear why I consider this illogical by reductio ad absurdum. You cant actually point to anything that supports the theory that the storm is deciding, apart from clinging to the idea it might be revealed later. It won't be for those same reductio ad absurdum reasons.

[GodThor]

Frankly, Odin shouldn't even need the Destroyer. He knocked out Galactus but head butting him! He's beaten Thanos into the ground and one-shotted the Silver Surfer. But your scenario is a god looking to go down in defeat and that's never been Odin. NEVER.

But then, he's never been a rampant misogynist before this run so I guess that's just about on par.

All we saw him do in this fight was stab the Mangog with his spear and hack at him. Where was the Odin-force? I never saw it.

meh don't know why you keep arguing with someone who defends Aaron's runs to it's core (I mean, he can enjoy it if he wishes).

I guess Mangog can beat TOAA because of some Anti God bull that was never even mentioned here and the fact that he was already hurt by Gods LMAO.

Odin was depowered.

plain and simple.

the feats he got would be enough to not even notice Mangog (who is the worst villain I haver ever seen).

no doubt that the next run will be about another God killing ass pull machine.

[brettc1]

It's a rant. Not an analysis. It's full of personal pain.

Seems pretty intelligent and well thought out to me. But it's probably easier to dismiss it than argue the points.

It's hardly a rant. I'm just kind of annoyed. And personal pain?

You're not allowed to dislike it. You are only hurting yourself by resisting. Embrace the truth and your self-inflicted suffering will go away.

[brettc1]

You keep claiming I am somehow the one stretching the facts. I am not. Just because the hammer is shown to be wilful does not mean that the rules of the enchantment have changed. These are not equal assertions. One is established canon that doubly supports this story and its entire premise. The other is a fan theory that doesn't make any sense but helped some people that wanted another reason for Odinson to be unable to lift it and Odin himself to be unable to. That was pure speculation.

The reason it gained traction was that it was also partly based upon Jane's suspicion of the hammer's sentience, but that has proved to be another issue entirely. Odinson's unworthiness has been explored elsewhere and discussed to death elsewhere too. Odin's failure to lift it has not been totally explored yet. I can guarantee you that neither of those are related to the storm.

Dude, how can it NOT be the Storm? Because the enchantment was one that Odin created, and if that were the only problem he could simply negate it - as he did years ago with the enchantment that Thor had to keep hold of the hammer and if he released it for 60 seconds he turned back into Donald Blake. He even suspended that particular enchantment at will so that Thor could fight Beta Ray Bill on equal footing.

The only other explanation is Aaron ignoring those out of convenience. Like most of Odin's power and pretty much all this intelligence.

[brettc1]

You think Odin should be able to take out Mangog? So you are dismissing the premise not specifically any particular event.

Where is the Odin-force? That is a central question in the story. BUT the Odin-Force is still deity based magic. Mangog has an immunity to that stuff. When he died he became the very embodiment of anti-god power. That's who he is now. He cant be killed by a god. This was pretty much who he has been for decades. Jurgens' Thor should never have been able to kill him in the first place, but that did give Marvel the opportunity to resurrect him and make it more clear how he worked now.

Years before Jurgen's, in Mighty Thor #198

[Tendrin]

Characters like Odin, the Guardians over in Green Lantern, and others /like/ them have suffered a lot in the last couple of decades.

[brettc1]

double post