Detective Comics #977 Preview/Discussion

[millernumber1]

spoilers:

Ulysses is accomplishing the forced conflict between the Colony and Batman by framing Dom and Coop, by using the prototype Brother Eye to control their suits. Elegant, both narratively and in terms of the plan itself. No one is to blame here except Ulysses.

end of spoilers

That being said,
spoilers:

I wonder how true the future simulation he showed Tim actually is. Ulysses himself seems to believe it's real. But Kate killing Bruce, in just a couple of years apparently, and with zero remorse? That's incredibly hard to swallow. Her future self seen in her own series directly contradicted that idea. And Future!Tim didn't hint at it either, so something must be up. Though the gunshot in this issue was seen in her series, so... I dunno.

end of spoilers

Other things:

I liked seeing a bit of off-duty bonding between the new and older Colony members. There's always been just enough of that in this series; there could always be more, but it's always good when it happens. Similar goes with
spoilers:

Tam. Like, when did she and Kate first meet? Clearly they have, and I can buy that since Kate and Luke are friends now, but c'mon.

end of spoilers

That being said, I still would like to see some Colony members who maybe aren't on board with this new situation.
spoilers:

Maybe now that there's an imminent, big conflict about to happen, that'll come out a bit.

end of spoilers

Colony Prime is probably also dead or something by now, since he'd be pitching an epic fit about all this.

I agree. This was definitely a VERY heavy Tim issue, and so many awesome Easter eggs (haha, Easter!) for fans of the Dixon Robin years, and the Red Robin series, and several other things. It was really awesome to see Eddy Barrows doing the future stuff, since he's done so much of it before, if you look at the issues it's featured in (the cover for Batwoman #6, Pax Batmana, the first two issues of Lonely Place of Living, and now the first half of this issue - I don't know if that was on purpose, but it feels very appropriate). And I agree - I think the General (and Brother Eye, depending on how sentient it is) is manipulating the future records. It feels too dramatic and compressed.

I think in terms of Kate's choice in the future simulation, Bruce is clearly acting in a way that justifies the No Man's Land, so I'd say Kate sees it as pretty similar to the Clayface situation - he's putting thousands if not millions of lives at risk. For all we know, she's preventing the OMAC Crisis thingy (since we know that OMAC is coming!)

I'm betting that in the issue where Kate, Jean-Paul, and Luke are saluting on the cover, we'll get some more Colony stuff.

[Assam]

The Good:

- Nice to see Ives and Tam.
- A couple good bits of dialogue.
- This isn't the comic's own doing, but I'm now hearing all of Kate, Luke and JPV's lines in over the top 'evil' voices and that's pretty funny to me when they're talking about going to get dinner.

The Bad-

- Like the last time the book decided to have issues dedicated to Tim, this was really, really boring. I so do not care about any of this, nor did I particularly enjoy most of it.
- The further they go in to the Colony, the more Luke and JPV get worse. Cass, Bruce and Doctober are seriously the only living characters coming out of this run likeable.
- No Cass at all.
- Super boy genius Tim decides not to immediately take down the guy with nazi uniforms on display in his living room who he knows is a maniac.
- As per usual with this book, all the potentially interesting and important stuff happens off-panel.
- Ulysses not even lying about knowing the context in the future takes away all tension (as if there was any to begin with) as we know there's just gonna be some twist of how it all makes sense.
- This felt incredibly short and barely anything happened.

Last issue was the best one the book had had since Intelligence, but we're back to full on crap with this.

spoilers:

Ulysses is accomplishing the forced conflict between the Colony and Batman by framing Dom and Coop, by using the prototype Brother Eye to control their suits. Elegant, both narratively and in terms of the plan itself. No one is to blame here except Ulysses.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I wonder how true the future simulation he showed Tim actually is. Ulysses himself seems to believe it's real. But Kate killing Bruce, in just a couple of years apparently, and with zero remorse? That's incredibly hard to swallow. Her future self seen in her own series directly contradicted that idea. And Future!Tim didn't hint at it either, so something must be up. Though the gunshot in this issue was seen in her series, so... I dunno.

end of spoilers

What you call elegant, I call lazy.

And after how she remorselessly killed Clayface, I could totally see her kill Bruce without flinching, even if, of course, that probably isn't what happened.

[Caivu]

What you call elegant, I call lazy.

You could at least explain how. It works because it has Ulysses being the singular bad guy and makes the path to reconciliation between the Knights clear. And it's a smart way for him to drive a wedge between the two teams: he's using both of their resources against them.

And after how she remorselessly killed Clayface, I could totally see her kill Bruce without flinching, even if, of course, that probably isn't what happened.

Then you don't understand how hugely out-of-character that would be for her without something major happening in the intervening years. Or that the entire situation, not just the killing, contradicts the future seen in her own title, bit you already hinted at that.

[Assam]

You could at least explain how. It works because it has Ulysses being the singular bad guy and makes the path to reconciliation between the Knights clear.

Exactly. By making him the obviously evil villain manipulating things, it removes all potential nuance from the story, making things far less interesting. I call it lazy because actually having the conflict be between the two groups and JUST the two groups and making a thematic point through that conflict would require effort.

Then you don't understand how hugely out-of-character that would be for her

You've been saying for weeks that she wasn't OOC at all when killing Basil.

[Caivu]

Exactly. By making him the obviously evil villain manipulating things, it removes all potential nuance from the story, making things far less interesting. I call it lazy because actually having the conflict be between the two groups and JUST the two groups and making a thematic point through that conflict would require effort.

We've already seen that conflict, though. And both sides, if left to their own devices, would stay out of each other's way.

You've been saying for weeks that she wasn't OOC at all when killing Basil.

And she wasn't. The issue isn't that she kills here, it's that she kills Bruce. One of the few remaining members of her family, which she is incredibly protective of.

And not just that she kills him, but does so in such cold fashion. That simply cannot happen based on the future seen in her own series, nor from what Future!Tim mentioned, so there's some sort of catch here.

I think in terms of Kate's choice in the future simulation, Bruce is clearly acting in a way that justifies the No Man's Land, so I'd say Kate sees it as pretty similar to the Clayface situation - he's putting thousands if not millions of lives at risk. For all we know, she's preventing the OMAC Crisis thingy (since we know that OMAC is coming!)

Is there a reason just arresting him and levelling the Batcave wouldn't do that same thing?

[millernumber1]

Is there a reason just arresting him and levelling the Batcave wouldn't do that same thing?

Um. It's Bruce? If you think the Joker gets out of Arkham easily, imagine how easily Batman gets away from the Colony. Or...we don't have to. We saw it way back in the first arc.

As for the lethal solution, there's a sense I got in the (quite possibly fake) simulation that Bruce has implanted Brother Eye into his body, which makes it much harder to do anything with him except kill him.

I'm not APPROVING of Kate killing anyone. I'm just trying to explain the way I read it.

[Caivu]

As for the lethal solution, there's a sense I got in the (quite possibly fake) simulation that Bruce has implanted Brother Eye into his body, which makes it much harder to do anything with him except kill him.

This would make some sense.

[The Whovian]

I think it's obvious that Ulysses is manipulating this whole scenario. What I don't get is why Tim is falling for any of it. This is really out of character for Tim. He's considered the greatest detective in the DCU outside of Batman, but he can't deduce what Ulysses is doing? Come on

[millernumber1]

I think it's obvious that Ulysses is manipulating this whole scenario. What I don't get is why Tim is falling for any of it. This is really out of character for Tim. He's considered the greatest detective in the DCU outside of Batman, but he can't deduce what Ulysses is doing? Come on

I don't see how Tim is falling for it. Unless you think he should confront Ulysses in his own lair, I think he was buying time to rebuild his relationship with Bruce so he and Batman could take on the General.

[Jackalope89]

I think it's obvious that Ulysses is manipulating this whole scenario. What I don't get is why Tim is falling for any of it. This is really out of character for Tim. He's considered the greatest detective in the DCU outside of Batman, but he can't deduce what Ulysses is doing? Come on

Not just Tim, but the hate for Kate has only grown thanks to this issue by readers.

I'm mentally screaming at Tim to not just accept what Ulysses has to say, and question everything he says. But nope.

[millernumber1]

Not just Tim, but the hate for Kate has only grown thanks to this issue by readers.

I'm mentally screaming at Tim to not just accept what Ulysses has to say, and question everything he says. But nope.

I think he is questioning it. That's why he's not just signing up, and frustrating Ulysses.

[The tall man]

Bruce seemed to go down pretty easily in that possible future sinario. You would think that with all his contingencies and preparedness that he would have put up a much tougher fight, where were all the mansion defenses? On top of that he has faced much more powerful and capable opponents but gets taken out by Kate Kane with a bullet to the head. Of all the ways I see Bruce going out, this was not one of them.

[Caivu]

Bruce is still just a guy, man. You shoot him in the face while he doesn't have a cowl on, he'll die like any other normal human.
But it's a moot point since that projection is questionable by its very nature.

[The tall man]

Bruce is still just a guy, man. You shoot him in the face while he doesn't have a cowl on, he'll die like any other normal human.
But it's a moot point since that projection is questionable by its very nature.

But the fact that he finds himself in that position. That the mansion was breached so quickly and easily, that he had no counter-measures to repel the Colony. The very fact that he is on his knees cowl less in front of Kate in the first place. In any possible future these series of events seem unlikely given what we know about Bruce and his single minded nature. You have to think that once Kate joined the Colony that Bruce would have plans in place should a sinario such as this occur. The man plans for everything. Yes it's moot but it just seemed jarring to me.

[Aioros22]

Of all the things to complain about, Batgod is one of them?

What Mansion defences? That thing gets ravaged by the Joker on a monthly basis. Xanadu is not.