Star Wars: Admiral Holdo

[Baseman]

I disagree. Poe's character went through a lot of character growth/progression. He was like Luke/Han of the original trilogy. Often thinking and jumping into action without heeding to wiser people. Taking really bold risks.

These can pay off by some stroke of luck. But that is not always going to work. Leaders need to take risks. But unnecessary risks can be bad. Poe learns this through the film. Towards the end he pulls off the suicidal run and actually uses his brain for once. Instead of running to help Luke he thinks 'Luke might be doing this for a reason'.

For that growth from a hot headed, 'no thinking' pilot to the 'possible' leader of the rebellion Holdo played a role. He needed a talk like that to learn. He was too hotheaded and excitable for his own good as well as the others. Unluckily, it did not help. And Poe went ahead and made the situation even worse. Only, this time he learnt.

I don't think its was executed well though.Considering there seems to be some debate as to whether for not the risks he took where unnecessary.

[Soubhagya]

I don't think its was executed well though.Considering there seems to be some debate as to whether for not the risks he took where unnecessary.

The first attack was unnecessary. The whole galaxy was falling into the hands of the FO after they destroyed the New Republic. The Resistance destroyed the Starkiller Base, but they were few in numbers and needed to retreat and regroup.

It was not a good idea to risk attacking the 'Dreadnought' considering the time (they were evacuating from that base) and circumstances(aim was to retreat and regroup). They destroyed that 'fleet killer' Dreadnought. But they lost the whole bombing squad. Poe disobeyed Leia's orders. And they died. 'Dead heroes, no leaders'. And they really needed leaders to rally the people. 'We are the spark that will light the fire which will burn the First Order down'. Their aim was to survive. To live to fight another day.

Sending Finn and Rose on that mission, and taking over the ship is not as clear cut. But still if he had listened to Holdo, more deaths would have been prevented including Holdo's.


Here someone can chime in and say 'but Holdo should have revealed the plan'. About which i have already posted.

[Baseman]

The first attack was unnecessary. The whole galaxy was falling into the hands of the FO after they destroyed the New Republic. The Resistance destroyed the Starkiller Base, but they were few in numbers and needed to retreat and regroup.

It was not a good idea to risk attacking the 'Dreadnought' considering the time (they were evacuating from that base) and circumstances(aim was to retreat and regroup). They destroyed that 'fleet killer' Dreadnought. But they lost the whole bombing squad. Poe disobeyed Leia's orders. And they died. 'Dead heroes, no leaders'. And they really needed leaders to rally the people. 'We are the spark that will light the fire which will burn the First Order down'. Their aim was to survive. To live to fight another day.

Sending Finn and Rose on that mission, and taking over the ship is not as clear cut. But still if he had listened to Holdo, more deaths would have been prevented including Holdo's.


Here someone can chime in and say 'but Holdo should have revealed the plan'. About which i have already posted.

Alright I gave you the first point.Although I like to point out that those bombers were so slow that they'ed likely wouldn't have survived anyway.I like Johnson passion for WW2 bombers but I don't think they fit in a space battle.

The problem I have with the second point is that the story seems deadset on tricking the views into thinking that Holdo at the very least didn't know what she was doing that's Poe's actions don't seem all that unwarranted. For his POV anyway.

Its not just the fact that Holdo didn't reveal the plan the fact that there was no reason for the plan to be keeped secret in the first place is IMO,the reason why this plot didn't connect with people

[regnak]

Holdo's plan depended on a tactic which makes the whole idea of huge capital ships ludicrous. If hyperspace ramming is possible then all the space battles we have seen before made no sense. Rian Johnson had an idea which blows up suspension of disbelief when you think about it for a minute. All the rebels needed were Falcon sized ships with droids ramming SD's and they win the OT easy oops!

[Guy1]

Where will she rank in your list of worst and most annoying star wars characters?

Below Jar Jar. She was that stupid. IMO, cutting her out from the movie would've only improved things. They should've put Poe or Ackbar in charge.

[Carabas]

Holdo's plan depended on a tactic which makes the whole idea of huge capital ships ludicrous. If hyperspace ramming is possible then all the space battles we have seen before made no sense. Rian Johnson had an idea which blows up suspension of disbelief when you think about it for a minute. All the rebels needed were Falcon sized ships with droids ramming SD's and they win the OT easy oops!

Holdo rammed the Super Duper Star Destroyer with a the biggest capital ship the Resistance had, not a small freighter, and she did a lot of damage, and she fail to destroy it. The First Order can just drag it to a drydock and fix it up.

[regnak]

Holdo rammed the Super Duper Star Destroyer with a the biggest capital ship the Resistance had, not a small freighter, and she did a lot of damage, and she fail to destroy it. The First Order can just drag it to a drydock and fix it up.

Super Duper Star Destroyer as you said. The regular ones are much smaller. An SD was 1 KM long and SSD 10 km and the new one I dunno. Also there was shrapnel that hit other FO ships. I cannot remember if any of them were destroyed but a number were damaged. My point stands.

[Carabas]

Super Duper Star Destroyer as you said. The regular ones are much smaller. An SD was 1 KM long and SSD 10 km and the new one I dunno. Also there was shrapnel that hit other FO ships. I cannot remember if any of them were destroyed but a number were damaged. My point stands.

But the regular ones were merely destroyed by shrapnel because they were flying in close formation, which would not ever happen if this sort of thing were a regular tactic.

Also, the Resistance does not actually have that much Falcon sized ships. Certainly not enough that they can trade them with the First Order on a one for one basis.

And droids are people too.

[regnak]

But the regular ones were merely destroyed by shrapnel because they were flying in close formation, which would not ever happen if this sort of thing were a regular tactic.

Also, the Resistance does not actually have that much Falcon sized ships. Certainly not enough that they can trade them with the First Order on a one for one basis.

And droids are people too.

If you cannot trade a MF sized ship for a SD then you might as well give up because you have no chance at all. Same thing applies with the bombers vs Dreadnought at the start of the movie. The whole plot was poorly thought out. And I was referring to the OT for the Falcon sized ships ramming SDs. They could have easily beaten the Empire if a such a tactic was possible. As for the last battle droids.

[Gray Lensman]

The Supremacy was 60km wide. It's a MASSIVE ship. And to do that damage it took something a couple km long ramming at lightspeed. Remember in Rogue One Vader's ship pops out of hyperspace and immediately slams into one of the GR-75's in Raddus's fleeing fleet - it broke apart like a toy doing zero to Vader's star destroyer.

Shields probably still matter - enough so that you aren't likely to be able to use old corvettes to take out dreadnaughts.

[regnak]

The Supremacy was 60km wide. It's a MASSIVE ship. And to do that damage it took something a couple km long ramming at lightspeed. Remember in Rogue One Vader's ship pops out of hyperspace and immediately slams into one of the GR-75's in Raddus's fleeing fleet - it broke apart like a toy doing zero to Vader's star destroyer.

Which just supports my point that the hyperspace ramming breaks star-ship combat as established in previous movies. To do that to a SD you would need something much smaller than Holdo's ship. For that matter you could put hyper drives on small asteroids. In ESB asteroids already damaged SDs so if Holdo's tactic made sense you could slap hyper drives on them and massacre an Imperial fleet.

[Gray Lensman]

Which just supports my point that the hyperspace ramming breaks star-ship combat as established in previous movies. To do that to a SD you would need something much smaller than Holdo's ship. For that matter you could put hyper drives on small asteroids. In ESB asteroids already damaged SDs so if Holdo's tactic made sense you could slap hyper drives on them and massacre an Imperial fleet.

In ESD that was many, many asteroids, or the unlucky one hitting the bridge, which is an established weak point in the design.

Plus, anyone trying to get overly technical about the science fantasy of Star Wars is already missing the point. It has plasma swords that instantly cauterize wounds but don't ignite the user instantly, artificial intelligence that has achieved sentience yet guns are still aimed manually, and space fighters that bank and turn like they are in the atmosphere. Scientific logic was thrown out the window in this series in the 1970's.

The first rule of Star Wars has always been Style over Substance. The franchise is built on this foundation.

[Soubhagya]

Alright I gave you the first point.Although I like to point out that those bombers were so slow that they'ed likely wouldn't have survived anyway.I like Johnson passion for WW2 bombers but I don't think they fit I'm a space battle.

The problem I have with the second point is that the story seems deadset on tricking the views into thinking that Holdo at the very least didn't know what she was doing that's Poe's actions don't seem all that unwarranted. For his POV anyway.

Its not just the fact that Holdo didn't reveal the plan the fact that there was no reason for the plan to be keeped secret in the first place is IMO,the reason why this plot didn't connect with people

I agree. Its a weird design for a bomber. Such a ship would be vulnerable. But such impractical technologies are dime a dozen in sci-fi films.

I was looking at a few of these 'impractical' ideas sometime ago.

http://www.cracked.com/pictofacts-88...-sense-at-all/

To be fair even AT-ATs don't make a lot of sense if you think about it. In Empire Strikes Back an AT-AT was stopped by wires/ropes around its legs. This one is dumber. A good visual. Okay for a work of fiction. You said its from World War 2. I can't recall any vehicle like this.

Yes the second point is debatable. From Poe's point of view he did alright. He tried to save others. Not the best plan. But it was something by which everyone could be saved. So, definitely the best plan for Poe under his circumstances. I think taking over the ship was a bad idea. After he knew the plan, he should not have taken over the ship. A little thinking and hearing with patience from Leia convinced Poe that Holdo's plan was a good one.

I get people were unhappy at Holdo's hiding the plan. That has been a big complaint. If you ask me there were good reasons to keep it a secret from Poe. Poe does not need to know that. Leaders shall have the discretion to tell plans at the right time especially those which involve secrecy. From her POV, its possible that there could be spies. That's one possible explanation of how they were tracking them.

The success of their plan depended a lot on secrecy. They used small transports under cloaking mechanism. They had to escape in secret. So, i can see reasons for keeping this close to the chest for some time. While Poe did what he thought was good, a better course of action would have been to obey the leaders. I would call it errors. Both did what they thought was right but it did not turn out well. The film is about making mistakes and learning from failures. So, its alright for me. But people can complain.

[Carabas]

To be fair even AT-ATs don't make a lot of sense if you think about it. In Empire Strikes Back an AT-AT was stopped by wires/ropes around its legs. This one is dumber. A good visual. Okay for a work of fiction. You said its from World War 2. I can't recall any vehicle like this.

Tiger tanks.



They even had illogical weak spots as they only had decent armour on the front side.

[ChrisIII]

The Y-wings sort of served a similar function in the OT. It's why they're the first to make the Death Star run. Although we don't really see them doing their intended purpose until Rogue One.