Fantastic Four Returns

[Crimz]

I hope Marvel advertises this book properly, bad marketing can kill amazing books.

[Iron Maiden]

I remember the big push they gave to the Waid/Wieringo Fantastic Four with their first issue costing 9 cents. Maybe Marvel should try something like that.

[The Negative Zone]

I hope that Marvel's idea of cancelling the book for a while has gotten fans to miss them enough to equal sales.

[CaptCleghorn]

I hope Marvel advertises this book properly, bad marketing can kill amazing books.

I'm not sure Marvel's initial advertising is going to be the important factor. I think they are going to push the ^%$# out of this book. They're Marvel. They don't believe is subtle. The push I'm concerned about is the secondary fan push. Will people talk this up and sell it like was done with Fraction's Hawkeye? The quality of the book is going to be the deciding factor.

I think any FF book is going to bring in the numbers to remain published. But those numbers don't seem to be what marvel's looking for from FF. Granted, they probably aren't expecting batman numbers every month, but I doubt they'd be happy with just over 20,000. Marvel can push but after the initial impact passes and we're thinking about issues 6, 7, 8 and so on, a book people want to read is what's needed. Not just a book an FF fanatic like me would buy and read.

[Iron Maiden]

I'm not sure Marvel's initial advertising is going to be the important factor. I think they are going to push the ^%$# out of this book. They're Marvel. They don't believe is subtle. The push I'm concerned about is the secondary fan push. Will people talk this up and sell it like was done with Fraction's Hawkeye? The quality of the book is going to be the deciding factor.

I think any FF book is going to bring in the numbers to remain published. But those numbers don't seem to be what marvel's looking for from FF. Granted, they probably aren't expecting batman numbers every month, but I doubt they'd be happy with just over 20,000. Marvel can push but after the initial impact passes and we're thinking about issues 6, 7, 8 and so on, a book people want to read is what's needed. Not just a book an FF fanatic like me would buy and read.

I think that's what made Hickman's run so successful, but in a modest way. There were many times person would post that they never read the Fantastic Four but they tried Hickman's and liked it. He had big ideas, just like Stan and Jack did, but they were ideas that worked for today's readers. They shouldn't try to recapture the past. Open things up to include a large cast and I mean bring back the Future Foundation. The only remnant of the past I would like would be a Johnny/Crystal romance but I think that's been ***ed up for all time from the Uncanny Avengers Johnny/Medusa thing.

[kilderkin]

I'm not sure Marvel's initial advertising is going to be the important factor. I think they are going to push the ^%$# out of this book. They're Marvel. They don't believe is subtle. The push I'm concerned about is the secondary fan push. Will people talk this up and sell it like was done with Fraction's Hawkeye? The quality of the book is going to be the deciding factor.

I think any FF book is going to bring in the numbers to remain published. But those numbers don't seem to be what marvel's looking for from FF. Granted, they probably aren't expecting batman numbers every month, but I doubt they'd be happy with just over 20,000. Marvel can push but after the initial impact passes and we're thinking about issues 6, 7, 8 and so on, a book people want to read is what's needed. Not just a book an FF fanatic like me would buy and read.

Yeah, agreed, I'll buy almost anything ff so long as the arts ok for me like any other book

They need to be integral to the marvel mythos again to keep profile and solid story that doesn't just break the characters down just to build them up, I think marvel has used that tactic far too much in recent years

[Oberon]

I LOVE your post. I was always a faithful FF reader; through thick and thin. I suppose I'm some sort of apologist for not so good stuff; I even enjoyed the first two FF Fox movies.

But Hickman was awesome and I won't say "as" comparisons to Byrne or Kirby/Lee. But he brought a compelling and well thought out set of stories that will only be seen as great, a return to form, "classic" even.

As far as Johnny and Crystal, which some more analytical fans (FF: Great American Novel website) would say is the greatest love story ala Romeo and Juliet, ever seen in comics. I wholly agree.

That's why if a good writer is present, there could be a chance. The greatness of Fantastic Four is often noted to be because of all the work and stories that Kirby/Lee provided. Certainly "they gave us all a new reality" (as Starlin once said of Ditko), but it could be seen as a blueprint as well. And as much as the art is timeless - yes it is, the characterization, dialog, etc - not exclusively Stan either, Kirby did some of this too - is also worthy of reconsideration.

Johnny and Medusa can only be explained by their sense of loss after Secret War and Black Bolt's imprisonment.

Its like (here I go, Soap Opera comparisons) the "Salem Stalker" plotline on Days of our Lives a dozen or so years ago. Marlena and Roman were thought to be dead (along with a bit of the cast; they were actually kidnapped!) and their respective spouses, John and Kate, began moving on - together - without them.

Their affair or whatever, was actually pretty hot, a true sense of chemistry between the actors I suppose, and Days/plot history. Eventually, as always, things went back to normal.

But to me that would be a way of looking at Johnny and Medusa, an attraction born not out of rebound but a certain level of desperation.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm not as enamored of the Johnny and Crystal relationship as some. I like it, sure, but I'm not close to calling it the "greatest". Heck, I might even put Reed/Sue and Ben/Alicia above it.

I will also confess to not giving Johnny/Medusa a fair chance or even having read any of it. I would have hoped Johnny learned a lesson after the Lyja/Alicia mess about dating close exes. And I never saw Medusa as being interested in someone as young and immature as Johnny. But, like I said, I'm not giving it a fair shot.

[Crimz]

I think Johnny and Crystal's relationship ending was a natural way that relationship would have gone. It's very rare for people to stay with their first love forever. They were both young and have grown a lot since then (Crystal more than Johnny) they aren't the same people they were when they were together. I think it should stay ended as that's usually how life goes. A relationship that I liked more than I thought was Johnny with Rogue, too bad most of it happened during the 8 month skip after Secret Wars.

I hate the on and off again thing with Ben and Alicia. They are great together and should get married already.

[Iron Maiden]

I LOVE your post. I was always a faithful FF reader; through thick and thin. I suppose I'm some sort of apologist for not so good stuff; I even enjoyed the first two FF Fox movies.

But Hickman was awesome and I won't say "as" comparisons to Byrne or Kirby/Lee. But he brought a compelling and well thought out set of stories that will only be seen as great, a return to form, "classic" even.

As far as Johnny and Crystal, which some more analytical fans (FF: Great American Novel website) would say is the greatest love story ala Romeo and Juliet, ever seen in comics. I wholly agree.

That's why if a good writer is present, there could be a chance. The greatness of Fantastic Four is often noted to be because of all the work and stories that Kirby/Lee provided. Certainly "they gave us all a new reality" (as Starlin once said of Ditko), but it could be seen as a blueprint as well. And as much as the art is timeless - yes it is, the characterization, dialog, etc - not exclusively Stan either, Kirby did some of this too - is also worthy of reconsideration.

Johnny and Medusa can only be explained by their sense of loss after Secret War and Black Bolt's imprisonment.

Its like (here I go, Soap Opera comparisons) the "Salem Stalker" plotline on Days of our Lives a dozen or so years ago. Marlena and Roman were thought to be dead (along with a bit of the cast; they were actually kidnapped!) and their respective spouses, John and Kate, began moving on - together - without them.

Their affair or whatever, was actually pretty hot, a true sense of chemistry between the actors I suppose, and Days/plot history. Eventually, as always, things went back to normal.

But to me that would be a way of looking at Johnny and Medusa, an attraction born not out of rebound but a certain level of desperation.

I can see that happening with them but sometimes comic book fans can be unforgiving. Poor Crystal was the victim of the Curse of Steve Englehart. There were times when he did more damage than good to characters, mostly at the expense of his pet character -- see Doom vs The Shroud in Super-villain Team-up or Mantis and any of her fellow Avengers. Englehart has her cheating on Pietro with a salesman and then later flirting with Dane Whitman (I'm not 100 % sure if that was Englehart) . Her later marriage to Ronan as part of the Kree alliance turned out better than I expected but that was broken up. I think she and Johnny have been apart long enough that maybe they can renew their feelings. Neither of them have found much happiness since they split up. At least see how it goes but without any pressure to get married. In fact I think we should see some guest shots of the various Inhumans in the relaunch.

I love that Great American Novel site too. Chris Tolworthy did an amazing job putting that together. I hope he doesn't give up on it. He had talked about that for a while because he said it was a lot of work to maintain.

[Oberon]

I love that Great American Novel site too. Chris Tolworthy did an amazing job putting that together. I hope he doesn't give up on it. He had talked about that for a while because he said it was a lot of work to maintain.

I read the story of their love back when it happened. I was young, early teens, but I really liked their story.

My view as Romeo/Juliet is definitely informed by Tolworthy and the Great American site. I think he really propels and convinces this notion.

I certainly agree Sue/Reed is a worthy love of the MU. Ben/Alicia is more of the pathos - tragic love, and worthy too.

But to me as teens or very young adults, Crys and Johnny fulfill the quotient of a romeo/Juliet, with the families angst or antagonism over their 'ship and how they were pulled apart.

Quicksilver ending up with Crys, to me, is bad housekeeping, in order to never restart that ship. But that was decades ago and you're right how neither Crystal or Johnny have had any love like theirs together....

[The Ray]

"The Great American Novel" is completely bonkers.

According to the guy, Sue is way older than she claims and Johnny is actually her son, resulting from an affair she had with Namor when she was 15 years old.

No wonder the same guy believes that Johnny/Crystal is the best love story ever told.

[Abe]

As a kid I read at the same time the first part of the Lee-Kirby run and the issues from the Bronze Age (I mean after 1973 I guess). And I must confess that if I have collected in the past few years all the issues that I missed back then (Omnibus, MMW, Essentials..) I still have to read them...

Shame on me!

What I'm trying to say is that I never read an issue of the FF where Johnny and Crystal were together...

I have to... I know... I will...

About The Great American Novel, I love that site. What an incredible work!

Crimz, I you haven't visit it yet, do it. But be aware that you coukd read there some troubling theories about Sue! You are warned...

EDIT : The Ray spoiled the beans! (It's just one of the many things on the site btw. And I find it also worth reading. Really. )

[CaptCleghorn]

"The Great American Novel" is completely bonkers.

According to the guy, Sue is way older than she claims and Johnny is actually her son, resulting from an affair she had with Namor when she was 15 years old.

No wonder the same guy believes that Johnny/Crystal is the best love story ever told.

You really need to start reading books and websites before commenting on them.

[Crimz]

As a kid I read at the same time the first part of the Lee-Kirby run and the issues from the Bronze Age (I mean after 1973 I guess). And I must confess that if I have collected in the past few years all the issues that I missed back then (Omnibus, MMW, Essentials..) I still have to read them...

Shame on me!

What I'm trying to say is that I never read an issue of the FF where Johnny and Crystal were together...

I have to... I know... I will...

About The Great American Novel, I love that site. What an incredible work!

Crimz, I you haven't visit it yet, do it. But be aware that you coukd read there some troubling theories about Sue! You are warned...

Visited it before and like with anything there were things I agreed with and liked, and things I completely disagree with.

There are definitely some... interesting interpretations.