Justice Society - with or without these characters?

[Dataweaver]

Arguably, putting them in the roster was a retcon* : the original team's whole concept was to “give the others a chance to shine”.

* though not a blatant retcon, in that it was done by adding to history rather than by changing history. I'm referring to the story added during the Bronze Age revealing that the first meeting of the JSA was actually predated by Superman and Batman getting together and deciding that the JSA should be founded. I prefer that story being ignored (it didn't really bring anything useful or interesting to the table), and going back to the JSA being founded by the group that met in All-Star Comics #3.

[Jon Clark]

Arguably, putting them in the roster was a retcon* : the original team's whole concept was to “give the others a chance to shine”.

* though not a blatant retcon, in that it was done by adding to history rather than by changing history. I'm referring to the story added during the Bronze Age revealing that the first meeting of the JSA was actually predated by Superman and Batman getting together and deciding that the JSA should be founded. I prefer that story being ignored (it didn't really bring anything useful or interesting to the table), and going back to the JSA being founded by the group that met in All-Star Comics #3.

Actually Superman and Batman had been honorary members in the 1940's stories having made quick cameos in an early issue where the members were raising funds for charity. Superman and Batman actually participated in an issue of All-Star alongside their fellow JSAers later in the 1940's. So making them part of the team was not really a retcon unless you are claiming the retcon was from almost the beginning.

Wonder Woman (not Hippolyta either, Diana) was an actual team member having part of her introducrion in All-Star the same month she debuted. And she was a regular member until the team was cancelled in the early 1950's.

[Riv86672]

Arguably, putting them in the roster was a retcon* : the original team's whole concept was to “give the others a chance to shine”.

* though not a blatant retcon, in that it was done by adding to history rather than by changing history. I'm referring to the story added during the Bronze Age revealing that the first meeting of the JSA was actually predated by Superman and Batman getting together and deciding that the JSA should be founded. I prefer that story being ignored (it didn't really bring anything useful or interesting to the table), and going back to the JSA being founded by the group that met in All-Star Comics #3.

^^^My bad.
Thanks for thanks for correcting me AND getting what I meant. Appreciate that. And I agree there was no need for that predate adendum, it added nothing of value.

[Dataweaver]

Well, the Per Degaton story may be over, but I still don't have any further clarification.

But then again, that story ending came out at the beginning of August, and we've only had one issue published since then.

We've got one minor bit of clarification: Helena's backstory is now officially not part of the New Golden Age timeline; it now exists only in Hypertime, and impacts the present only through Helena's continued existence.

Though I do hope to see that timeline revisited eventually, through the wonders of Hypertime — but mainly through more elements from it coming into the main timeline, rather than the JSA visiting it. For one thing, Kyle Knight is far too young in the present to be making any appearances as the Mist: he might be starting grade school by now, though he may still be in kindergarten. I could see transporting a version of him from the future at some point after Helena has had a chance to redeem some of the others from her version of the JSA (most likely Harlequin's Son and Ruby, as that will give Johns an angle to further explore his new additions to the timeline; but Icicle has some sort potential too, given his history with Rick Tyler and Jesse Chambers).

For another thing, I'm inordinately fond of the idea I had of the 1970s JSA getting a Robin who turns out to be the future son of Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon; and Helena's “backstory timeline” would be a good future for such a character to come from, considering that it's basically “Batman's JSA-related history transplanted into the future”. That would be a story to tell in a few years, though, after Helena has had the opportunity to actually have some adventures with the modern JSA. But once it's appropriate to do so, strand her in the 1970s, where she meets her childhood friend Dick Jr. and learns how he ended up working alongside Powergirl and the Star Spangled Kid in that era's JSA. Use the opportunity to explain more about what the JSA of the 1970s and 1980s was like in the New Golden Age: in my ideal version of this story, I'd also include a variation on the Kents from 2016's Superman: Lois and Clark, restoring the notion that the ten years that the Kents spent raising Jon were during a time travel sojourn of their own and not awkwardly crammed into the present where there's frankly no room for them, and simultaneously resolving the issue of Power Girl debuting in an era without a Superman to serve as her mentor.

And climax the story with the New Golden Age's version of the First Crisis, recasting the JSA's involvement as time travel and emphasizing its aftermath: Helena and Dick Jr. seemingly killed by shadow demons alongside the New Teen Titans' Kole; the bulk of the JSA trapped in Ragnarok; the Infinitors and others thrown forward in time to the modern era's aftermath of the Crisis; and Alex Luthor returning the Kents to their proper place in time. And finally concluding with the reveal that Helena, Dick Jr., and Kole didn't die in the Crisis, but were recovered at the last moment by the android Hourman and returned to the present, where they can continue their adventures with the contemporary JSA. Maybe do it as a JSA Annual, similar to the one where Power Girl visited the Earth 2 of the Justice League Infinity team.

Since this story would also revisit the origins of Infinity Inc., it could possibly also be used to address Wonder Woman's role in the New Golden Age's 1970s JSA, including what her relationship to Fury is.

[Dataweaver]

^^^My bad.
Thanks for thanks for correcting me AND getting what I meant. Appreciate that. And I agree there was no need for that predate adendum, it added nothing of value.

I didn't actually correct you; you were correct in what you said. I just elaborated on it a bit.

Now, I don't agree that Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, and Robin should be excised from the JSA's history; but I'd much rather the contemporary JSA not include (most of) them. Oddly, the one I'd have the least problem joining the JSA would be the Golden Age Aquaman.

[Dataweaver]

Actually Superman and Batman had been honorary members in the 1940's stories having made quick cameos in an early issue where the members were raising funds for charity. Superman and Batman actually participated in an issue of All-Star alongside their fellow JSAers later in the 1940's. So making them part of the team was not really a retcon unless you are claiming the retcon was from almost the beginning.

I know. Two appearances out of 57 issues, both times clearly being presented strictly as honorary members, is effectively nothing; they're involvement with the 1940s version of the JSA can safely be ignored with no damage. The “retcon” I refer to was actually a story written in the 70s or early 80s (I forget which) that revealed that Superman and Batman hadn't been honorary* members after all; they had (retroactively) been founders, who had immediately chosen to become reservists afterward, and had no further involvement aside from the aforementioned cameos. As I said before, it didn't actually add anything of value to the team's history.

* Honorary members, meaning: “we've worked with you before, and we like you; so we'll give you a card saying that you're a member of the team, even though you’re really not.”

Wonder Woman (not Hippolyta either, Diana) was an actual team member having part of her introducrion in All-Star the same month she debuted. And she was a regular member until the team was cancelled in the early 1950's.

I'm very well aware of that; and I have no problem with the implication given in the Wonder Woman 80th anniversary special that her history with the team may have been increased rather than dialed back.

[Jim Kelly]

I may be repeating myself, but the whole attraction of the original Justice Society of America is that it actually existed in comics in the 1940s. Those are the sacred texts, the canon. They can't be altered or edited. Any changes to them are a fake.

In ALL-STAR COMICS 3, Superman, Batman and Robin are mentioned at the dinner meeting. The original Red Tornado makes an appearance.

Comic books featuring these characters were advertised in the pages of ALL-STAR and what characters had their own solo titles was part of the Society rules for membership--thus Superman and Batman couldn't be active members and Green Lantern, Flash and Wonder Woman couldn't be active either once they gained their own books (Diana had some sort of "secretary" role which was the loophole that allowed her to keep appearing in every issue).

The good thing about this is that there's nothing anyone can do to change that past now. Those comics existed, some people have them in their collections, there are scans of them to be found. And why would you want to change that? It's a part of comics history, it's what set in motion further developments in comic books.

It makes no sense to me why anyone wants to lose that.

For sure, you can make up fake histories that propose alternate timelines and parallel worlds. But the original comics will always be there reminding us what is really true.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Dataweaver]

I'll only disagree with you on one thing: your assertion that the current timeline is any more fake than the original one was. I'm a big fan of Hypertime and its assertion that, in the truest sense, “it all happened”. But that doesn't just mean that the original stories happened; it also means that the revised versions of those stories happened, too. Including the current version of the team's history.

[MajorHoy]

Arguably, putting them in the roster was a retcon* : the original team's whole concept was to “give the others a chance to shine”.

* though not a blatant retcon, in that it was done by adding to history rather than by changing history. I'm referring to the story added during the Bronze Age revealing that the first meeting of the JSA was actually predated by Superman and Batman getting together and deciding that the JSA should be founded. I prefer that story being ignored (it didn't really bring anything useful or interesting to the table), and going back to the JSA being founded by the group that met in All-Star Comics #3.

I know. Two appearances out of 57 issues, both times clearly being presented strictly as honorary members, is effectively nothing; they're involvement with the 1940s version of the JSA can safely be ignored with no damage. The “retcon” I refer to was actually a story written in the 70s or early 80s (I forget which) that revealed that Superman and Batman hadn't been honorary* members after all; they had (retroactively) been founders, who had immediately chosen to become reservists afterward, and had no further involvement aside from the aforementioned cameos. As I said before, it didn't actually add anything of value to the team's history.

* Honorary members, meaning: “we've worked with you before, and we like you; so we'll give you a card saying that you're a member of the team, even though you’re really not.”

Are you referring to the Origin story for the JSA from DC Special #29 (August-September 1977)


that was retold post-CoIE without Superman or Batman (nor Jim Gordon) in Secret Origins #31 (October 1988)?


I thought it worked well in providing a backstory as to how the members first came together and decided to form the Justice Society. All-Star Comics #3 didn't do anything towards explaining why they decided to become a team and was more a framing device for a bunch of unrelated stories featuring those characters.

[The Darknight Detective]

I thought it worked well in providing a backstory as to how the members first came together and decided to form the Justice Society. All-Star Comics #3 didn't do anything towards explaining why they decided to become a team and was more a framing device for a bunch of unrelated stories featuring those characters.

The original story makes the JSA more like a men's club than a superhero team, IMO.

[The Darknight Detective]

I thought it worked well in providing a backstory as to how the members first came together and decided to form the Justice Society. All-Star Comics #3 didn't do anything towards explaining why they decided to become a team and was more a framing device for a bunch of unrelated stories featuring those characters.

The original story makes the JSA more like a men's club than a superhero team, IMO.

[Jon Clark]

I know. Two appearances out of 57 issues, both times clearly being presented strictly as honorary members, is effectively nothing; they're involvement with the 1940s version of the JSA can safely be ignored with no damage. The “retcon” I refer to was actually a story written in the 70s or early 80s (I forget which) that revealed that Superman and Batman hadn't been honorary* members after all; they had (retroactively) been founders, who had immediately chosen to become reservists afterward, and had no further involvement aside from the aforementioned cameos. As I said before, it didn't actually add anything of value to the team's history.

* Honorary members, meaning: “we've worked with you before, and we like you; so we'll give you a card saying that you're a member of the team, even though you’re really not.”.

But those appearances were on par with Mr. Terrific and Wildcat whose JSA appearances in the Golden Age were only one apiece.

And both Flash and Green Lantern were given honorary membership when they got their own titles so it isn't as of Superman and Batman got some "member in name only" status unique to them.

[MajorHoy]

The original story makes the JSA more like a men's club than a superhero team, IMO.

But . . . that's essentially what they were in the beginning.

But those appearances were on par with Mr. Terrific and Wildcat whose JSA appearances in the Golden Age were only one apiece.

Correction: Wildcat was in both issue #24 and #27 while Mr. Terrific was in just #24.

And both Flash and Green Lantern were given honorary membership when they got their own titles so it isn't as if Superman and Batman got some "member in name only" status unique to them.

This is true, though later Jay and Alan were back as regular members even while they still had their own separate titles.

[The Darknight Detective]

But . . . that's essentially what they were in the beginning.

I know, but not everybody has read that story.

This is true, though later Jay and Alan were back as regular members even while they still had their own separate titles.

Maybe it was done to boost lagging sales from their solo magazines?

[Riv86672]

I didn't actually correct you; you were correct in what you said. I just elaborated on it a bit.

Now, I don't agree that Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, and Robin should be excised from the JSA's history; but I'd much rather the contemporary JSA not include (most of) them. Oddly, the one I'd have the least problem joining the JSA would be the Golden Age Aquaman.

^^^Well, thanks for not jumping down my throat at any rate!

As I’ve always been interested in how and why the Golden Age Aquaman disappeared, I gotta admit I’m looking forward to him coming back.