Justice Society - with or without these characters?

[MajorHoy]

. . . If Air Wave 1 was based on Earth-Two in the All-Star Squadron, how is his son, Air wave 2, the cousin of the Earth-One Green Lantern? Why can't the Earth-Two Atom shrink? Were the Guardian and Newsboy Legion from the Bronze Age Jimmy Olsen stories the same ones in the All-Star Squadron or were there two different version? ...

And to also be fair, Roy Thomas is the one at fault for some of these. (Not the bit about the Earth-2 version of Atom not shrinking, though.)
Both Air Wave 2 in Green Lantern and the Guardian/Newsboy Legion stories in Jimmy Olsen came before Roy Thomas came to DC and created the All-Star Squadron.

And Roy did get carried away with all his Golden Age retcons for All-Star Squadron, like having all the Quality Comics characters originate on Earth-2 prior to travelling to Earth-X (where they were first introduced into the DC universe nearly ten years prior to appearing in All-Star Squadron).

[Ascended]

The duplicates was likely a major cause of the multiverse imploding, I'd wager. And the amount of cross-pollination.

I dunno, I wasn't around at the time. But I can see the argument that the multiverse was cluttered and had a lot of extraneous fat that needed to be trimmed. Which Firebrand are we talking about, which Superman? Is this the Dick Grayson that became Nightwing or the one who stayed Robin through adulthood. Lots of repetition of names.

I'd think a solution to that problem would just be to use different characters on different worlds. You put Shazam on one earth, and your other earths don't have one. And while you do your big crossovers (alternate realities doesn't preclude interactions) you keep everyone on their native world for your status quo.

The only exception to that rule is the major five DC characters. Them, you'll end up using eventually. At some point editors will convince themselves that it has to be done. So if you use them on more than one world, the alternate one/s must be wildly different from the norm. Jay instead of Barry, Hal instead of Allan. Bruce dead or ruling the League of Assassins. Whatever. It just has to be completely different, perhaps even contrary. And it shouldn't be the main focus of the alternate books.

[Jim Kelly]

And to also be fair, Roy Thomas is the one at fault for some of these. (Not the bit about the Earth-2 version of Atom not shrinking, though.)
Both Air Wave 2 in Green Lantern and the Guardian/Newsboy Legion stories in Jimmy Olsen came before Roy Thomas came to DC and created the All-Star Squadron.

And Roy did get carried away with all his Golden Age retcons for All-Star Squadron, like having all the Quality Comics characters originate on Earth-2 prior to travelling to Earth-X (where they were first introduced into the DC universe nearly ten years prior to appearing in All-Star Squadron).

These kind of things in the early 1980s probably provoked the Powers That Be into pulling the plug on the Multiverse. But if you look at it, before that brief period, the Multiverse crossovers were used judiciously and were no more confusing than Superman teaming up with Spider-Man or Batman with Hulk.

It certainly wasn’t anything that bugged me as a long time reader. And the bad (like the Black Canary continuity patch-up) was far outweighed by the good and often amazing tales that the Multiverse allowed.

It’s just a passive-aggressive attack on the fans when the DC execs try to lay the blame on us for the death of multiple Earths. And the same writers and editors that were responsible for those pre-Crisis missteps were the ones creating the new DCU—so the fault was in them.

The way I see things going now is away from one shared universe. There’s multiple continuities—sometimes identified by labels. The numbered Earths used to be an easy way to identify some continuities, but DC screwed it all up by using the same number for multiple Earths.

In the future, writers will be able to pick what universe they want their story to exist in. They won’t have to jam characters into a continuity where they don’t belong.

[jimmy]

These kind of things in the early 1980s probably provoked the Powers That Be into pulling the plug on the Multiverse. But if you look at it, before that brief period, the Multiverse crossovers were used judiciously and were no more confusing than Superman teaming up with Spider-Man or Batman with Hulk.

It certainly wasn’t anything that bugged me as a long time reader. And the bad (like the Black Canary continuity patch-up) was far outweighed by the good and often amazing tales that the Multiverse allowed.

It’s just a passive-aggressive attack on the fans when the DC execs try to lay the blame on us for the death of multiple Earths. And the same writers and editors that were responsible for those pre-Crisis missteps were the ones creating the new DCU—so the fault was in them.

The way I see things going now is away from one shared universe. There’s multiple continuities—sometimes identified by labels. The numbered Earths used to be an easy way to identify some continuities, but DC screwed it all up by using the same number for multiple Earths.

In the future, writers will be able to pick what universe they want their story to exist in. They won’t have to jam characters into a continuity where they don’t belong.

Lets hope - I'd love to go back in time to with the power to stop the 86 reboot!

[MajorHoy]

Lets hope - I'd love to go back in time to with the power to stop the 86 reboot!

Actually, the idea of a "reboot" of sorts in 1986 wasn't a bad idea, since there was much in the thirty years since the beginning of the Silver Age that needed to be worked on (like the solution involving the mother & daughter Black Canary where daughter had ALL of Mommy's memories and thought she was actually her mother!), but in doing any house-cleaning they neglected to come up with a logical plan for going forward with everything, hence the need to "fix" things again nearly ten years later with "Zero Hour".

[The Darknight Detective]

Actually, the idea of a "reboot" of sorts in 1986 wasn't a bad idea, since there was much in the thirty years since the beginning of the Silver Age that needed to be worked on (like the solution involving the mother & daughter Black Canary where daughter had ALL of Mommy's memories and thought she was actually her mother!),

That needed to be retconned out as soon as it was published. Talk about dreadfully bad!

[MajorHoy]

That needed to be retconned out as soon as it was published. Talk about dreadfully bad!

But, unfortunately, it probably did make the most sense at the time since there was over ten years of stories where the character who was a member of the Justice League of America had also previously been a member of the Justice Society of America more than twenty years (our time) before.

[Jim Kelly]

That needed to be retconned out as soon as it was published. Talk about dreadfully bad!

And as I always need to point out, that story was only a year and a half before COIE began. And we know Crisis was being planned long before that. In fact, Len Wein had a hand in getting both ideas to the page. So it’s not like they were cleaning up someone else’s mess from decades before; they were cleaning up messes they had just made.

[The Darknight Detective]

And as I always need to point out, that story was only a year and a half before COIE began. And we know Crisis was being planned long before that. In fact, Len Wein had a hand in getting both ideas to the page. So it’s not like they were cleaning up someone else’s mess from decades before; they were cleaning up messes they had just made.

Yep. The whole Multiverse-is-hard argument is just a smokescreen for the real reason of COIE: to save DC from being sold off.

[MajorHoy]

Yep. The whole Multiverse-is-hard argument is just a smokescreen for the real reason of COIE: to save DC from being sold off.

All I know is that just prior to CoIE, I had pretty much given up on most comic books. CoIE roped me back in with a vengeance that lasted until almost a year after Zero Hour.
And now with Rebirth, I'm pretty much where I was at right after Zero Hour. Go figure.

[Ascended]

You know, Zero Hour was my first big "event?" I finally found a comic shop with a solid selection when the story was about halfway through, and I was confused as hell by the backwards numbering.

[Sandy Hausler]

When it comes to the Justice Society of America, do you prefer them with or without the following characters (all Golden Age/Pre-COIE Earth-Two versions)?

1. Superman
2. Wonder Woman
3. Batman
4. Robin
5. Aquaman
6. Green Arrow

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Were Aquaman and Green Arrow ever members of the JSA? Green Arrow, to my knowledge, was in the Seven Soldiers of Victory, not the JSA, and I don't recall that Aquaman was a member of either group.

Sandy Hausler

[WonderScott]

Back when I started reading comics (early 90s), I remember picking up the back issues of Crisis because: "I want to read a story with all the superheroes in it." (My comic shop owner was kind to my newbie status.)

I don't recall having an issue understanding the multiple Earths and alternate dimensions, that I probably referred to them at the time. It made sense that the JLA and JSA were on separate Earths and it wasn't confusing that they were different takes on the same character. I was probably more excited that I had alternate versions with alternate storylines to figure out.

Fast forward to the 00s and Clutter Earth, I tried the relaunched JSA title on a whim and to try something new - having never read JSA, All-Star Squadron, Infinity Inc. in the past. My familiarity with the Golden Age concepts was better by that time, but I welcomed reading about some of the original teammates and their new descendants and heroic mantle wearers.

Earth 2 in the DCnU intrigued me while Robinson and Taylor were writing it, but then it went downhill for me in a mess.

All this is to say I've read a wide range of modern JSA material and as long as they come at it and the characters with a solid concept that honors their past in some ways, balanced with giving us something new, I'll probably be there.

[MajorHoy]

Were Aquaman and Green Arrow ever members of the JSA? Green Arrow, to my knowledge, was in the Seven Soldiers of Victory, not the JSA, and I don't recall that Aquaman was a member of either group.

Sandy Hausler

As I mentioned back on the first page,

. . . 5. Aquaman was never a member of the JSA; I don't think the separate Earth-2 version of Aquaman was really established until All-Star Squadron in the 1980s.

As for Green Arrow, I don't know of an Earth-2 counter-part to Green Arrow ever appearing with the JSA until 1972, when the annual JLA/JSA team-up featured the search for the missing Seven Soldiers of Victory.

And after that story, the only member of the Seven Soldiers of Victory that eventually (over three years later) became a member of the JSA was the Star-Spangled Kid.

[Trey Strain]

It doesn't matter whether Superman, Batman, Wonder Wonder, Green Arrow or Aquaman were or were't in the JSA 67 years ago. The market couldn't care less about that. Their inclusion in the new comic is a bad idea because putting them in would make it too much like the Justice League.

DC really needs to figure out what to do with Green Arrow and Aquaman. I'd say put them in JSA, but it looks like they're going to keep trying to sell those comics.

It's funny because I imagine that some of the same people who wouldn't want those two in the JSA would be gung-ho about putting the same B-list modern characters on the team that Geoff Johns put on it in the Nineties. Go figure that.

Also, you shouldn't assume that everything that happened in the Golden Age is in continuity. On the contrary, you should assume that none of it is until DC specifically states otherwise.