Scarlet Spider is good, but how can it be great?

[Spiderfang]

A few things I think to be implemented would help drive the overall direction of the story and bring in old and new readers.

1) Bring in the Jackal - I know people will complain because A) clones are always involved whenever he is around (they don't need to involve clones, maybe mutant animals or a disease bomb he is a brilliant scientist after all) and B) because he is "dead" (c'mon it's Miles Warren) even if he didn't send a clone in his place to deal with Ben (which he most likely did) he probably has a backup.

2) Bring in more characters from the 90s Clone Epic; Stunner, Spidercide etc. (Jackal probably has genetic material/copies of all of his experiments so probably very likely)

3) Go back to blond (Seriously! Just do it!); blond hair has always been Ben's iconic look (well at least for the latter half of the Clone Epic) and it should make a comeback, especially if the author has intentions of moving Ben back to New York (i.e. closer to Peter)

4) Switch up the setting; I can't help but feel that once the primary narrative of the Vegas setting is finished we will see Ben leaving town, hopefully returning to an old haunt like Salt Lake City (he spent time in Utah during the blank period) or New York or even Jersey.

5) Bring back the gadgets; something that Ben was known for was his creative genius; impact webbing and stingers, I'd like to see a return to his creative genius as A) a callback to classic Ben Reilly and B) to fill the intellectual void left by Superior Spiderman (because Peter is often 'dummbed' down by modern writers).

6) Ben needs a relationship; I would say Ben NEEDS a girl, however I don't want to assume he would NEED to be a in a hetero relationship. Anyway I think he should have a stable, yet realistic relationship, something to mirror/opposite Peter's ever-changing Facebook Relationship statuses. It's been a while, so maybe Elizabeth Tyne has served her sentence and is a free woman, maybe Ben still remembers her?

7) Kaine needs to go; not forever but just for a while, I know the two have a checkered history and there is no one else more attached to Ben other than Miles Warren or Peter himself, so Kaine will ALWAYS be in the picture in some way. However, I think Kaine needs to join a team or get his own series again for a while and maybe just make occasional sporadic appearances. The Clone Saga was...good for its time (subjectively) but we don't need a Clone Saga 2.0, where the basis is once again Kaine being hell-bent on killing his brother/clone or in this case just casually antagonizing and/or stooging him (since they've more or less patched things up in the last two issues). Kaine should also get a new moniker, maybe Crimson Spider, or something similar.

8) More snark; our Ben should be the snarker of the spider-men; Peter is a jolly joker, Kaine is a no-nonsense dramatical, and Ben should be the snarker to even the trio out.

9) 2099; either a cameo from Miguel or Ben actually taking a trip to 2099, I feel like Spider-Man 2099 and the Clone Saga are intangibly interwoven (even though they're not) because they both came from the 90's era of comic books. Also Peter, Otto, and Kaine have all had interactions with Miguel so it couldn't hurt for Ben to get in on some 2099 action.

10) Drop the Aunt June bit; it's obviously the author filling in Ben's void for his Aunt (whom he never actually met), but believes to be dead with this homeless woman. I feel like once the Vegas arc is wrapping up, Ben will make a deal with Cassandra that will set June up for life, so he can move on and not worry about her anymore (thus symbolically overcoming his grief and nostalgia for losing Aunt May). Also there's no reason to keep the character around except for the reason mentioned above, Ben and Peter are already too similar as it is and the boys need to be their own individuals even if one of them is a clone.

11) Ben should become a Parker; as in he needs to reconcile with Peter even if it results in him getting punched or thrown in jail. Peter has lost a lot of important people in his life, and I feel like he could really benefit from having a 'superhero buddy' or a brother to confide in from time to time. It's time for Ben and Peter to bury the hatchet and become brothers again, instead of angsty feuding children.

12) Stop referring to Ben as a clone; the whole clone ordeal was traumatic enough for Ben, but with Peter referring to Ben as "my clone" or other's calling him "Peter's clone" or "I'm just a clone..." it's not doing him any good for his psyche. He should be Peter's brother, or peter's twin, the whole clone label comes with a can full of worms that can trigger poor Ben into a psychotic break.

13) Ben needs a therapist; seriously he's died like...twenty times (after the initial big death)? He has a lot of baggage sitting on his chest and needs someone he can talk to. It would also serve as a good segue into reviewing his past as the scarlet/spider-man in the 90's (for people who are unfamiliar) and a good way to reintroduce forgotten characters from that period.

What are your thoughts?

[Lukmendes]

A few things I think to be implemented would help drive the overall direction of the story and bring in old and new readers.

1) Bring in the Jackal - I know people will complain because A) clones are always involved whenever he is around (they don't need to involve clones, maybe mutant animals or a disease bomb he is a brilliant scientist after all) and B) because he is "dead" (c'mon it's Miles Warren) even if he didn't send a clone in his place to deal with Ben (which he most likely did) he probably has a backup.

Think Ben should first stabilish first his own thing before possibly stealing rogues from Peter, but I honestly think that using Jackal is too obvious and too boring.

2) Bring in more characters from the 90s Clone Epic; Stunner, Spidercide etc. (Jackal probably has genetic material/copies of all of his experiments so probably very likely)

Eh, I feel like they should keep the usage of clones at a minimum, meaning shouldn't use more lol.

3) Go back to blond (Seriously! Just do it!); blond hair has always been Ben's iconic look (well at least for the latter half of the Clone Epic) and it should make a comeback, especially if the author has intentions of moving Ben back to New York (i.e. closer to Peter)

Yeah, blonde hair could return, and I think he's just fine in Las Vegas to be fair.

5) Bring back the gadgets; something that Ben was known for was his creative genius; impact webbing and stingers, I'd like to see a return to his creative genius as A) a callback to classic Ben Reilly and B) to fill the intellectual void left by Superior Spiderman (because Peter is often 'dummbed' down by modern writers).

Agreed, that'd help to keep him separated from Peter.

6) Ben needs a relationship; I would say Ben NEEDS a girl, however I don't want to assume he would NEED to be a in a hetero relationship. Anyway I think he should have a stable, yet realistic relationship, something to mirror/opposite Peter's ever-changing Facebook Relationship statuses. It's been a while, so maybe Elizabeth Tyne has served her sentence and is a free woman, maybe Ben still remembers her?

I don't think a relationship is needed at all, at best just a solid supporting cast.

7) Kaine needs to go; not forever but just for a while, I know the two have a checkered history and there is no one else more attached to Ben other than Miles Warren or Peter himself, so Kaine will ALWAYS be in the picture in some way. However, I think Kaine needs to join a team or get his own series again for a while and maybe just make occasional sporadic appearances. The Clone Saga was...good for its time (subjectively) but we don't need a Clone Saga 2.0, where the basis is once again Kaine being hell-bent on killing his brother/clone or in this case just casually antagonizing and/or stooging him (since they've more or less patched things up in the last two issues). Kaine should also get a new moniker, maybe Crimson Spider, or something similar.

Somewhat agreed, occasional cameos are fine and all, but this should still be Ben's story. Also Clone Saga being "good" for its time is not really a compliment lol.

8) More snark; our Ben should be the snarker of the spider-men; Peter is a jolly joker, Kaine is a no-nonsense dramatical, and Ben should be the snarker to even the trio out.

I guess.

9) 2099; either a camero from Miguel or Ben actually taking a trip to 2099, I feel like Spider-Man 2099 and the Clone Saga are intangibly interwoven (even though they're not) because they both came from the 90's era of comic books. Also Peter, Otto, and Kaine have all had interactions with Miguel so it couldn't hurt for Ben to get in on some 2099 action.

I think they should stabilish Ben more before doing some crazier adventures like going to the future.

10) Drop the Aunt June bit; it's obviously the author filling in Ben's void for his Aunt (whom he never actually met), but believes to be dead with this homeless woman. I feel like once the Vegas arc is wrapping up, Ben will make a deal with Cassandra that will set June up for life, so he can move on and not worry about her anymore (thus symbolically overcoming his grief and nostalgia for losing Aunt May). Also there's no reason to keep the character around except for the reason mentioned above, Ben and Peter are already too similar as it is and the boys need to be their own individuals even if one of them is a clone.

Agreed, Aunt June should be just him feeling nostalgic (Even though June is nothing like May), but he should move on from it.

11) Ben should become a Parker; as in he needs to reconcile with Peter even if it results in him getting punched or thrown in jail. Peter has lost a lot of important people in his life, and I feel like he could really benefit from having a 'superhero buddy' or a brother to confide in from time to time. It's time for Ben and Peter to bury the hatchet and become brothers again, instead of angsty feuding children.

To be fair it's justified for Peter to be pissed off at Ben currently, but yeah, they could reconcile, nothing rushed though, should take its sweet time for Peter to thrust him again, otherwise it won't feel deserved, or well made.

12) Stop referring to Ben as a clone; the whole clone ordeal was traumatic enough for Ben, but with Peter referring to Ben as "my clone" or other's calling him "Peter's clone" or "I'm just a clone..." it's not doing him any good for his psyche. He should be Peter's brother, or peter's twin, the whole clone label comes with a can full of worms that can trigger poor Ben into a psychotic break.

I think that should stay for a while, him calling himself a clone seems like him not feeling like a good person, or even feeling like an actual human, so he should keep it up while feeling like that, if he gets better though, then he should stop.

13) Ben needs a therapist; seriously he's died like...twenty times (after the initial big death)? He has a lot of baggage sitting on his chest and needs someone he can talk to. It would also serve as a good segue into reviewing his past as the scarlet/spider-man in the 90's (for people who are unfamiliar) and a good way to reintroduce forgotten characters from that period.

Yeah that'd be cool.

[Pav]

I like some of the ideas presented so far, and I'm not a fan of some others, but I'm not sure anything listed so far will push the Scarlet needle from "good" to "great."

I've said it before, but I think one thing that could really bolster the book and bring in more fans is to include Carnage: Ben bonding with it and becoming Spider-Carnage is one of the highlights of Ben's history, and I think revisiting that and pushing it forward into a new story could provide that oomph that the book could use to better sustain itself.

-Pav, who wonders what others think...

[theoneandonly]

I wonder if we will get a arc through a visit from madam web or through Ben visiting strange when damnation is done where he will undertake a metaphysical journey or quest to enable him to be able to finally understand his place in the world/cosmos and could be he would end up with his soul cleansed. Judas could also be used for this story and the scryers.

[Huntsman Spider]

I like most of those ideas, but my favorites start with bringing in more of the rogues that Ben fought as a solo web-slinger during Peter's "retirement," particularly Carolyn Trainer/Lady Octopus and Joystick. Given the current locale of Las Vegas and it being a well-known gambling hub, the Great Game could easily be restarted there and Ben could get dragged into it by someone with a grudge against him (understandable or not). I would also agree with bringing in more of Ben's supporting cast from back in the day, particularly Elizabeth Tyne/Janine Godbe (maybe she and Ben have a child like in MC2 and that makes Ben realize he has to become a better person for at least his family's sake if not his own).

To add to Ben's rogues gallery, especially if Ben's gonna be tangoing with Death and Mephisto, anyway, I would throw in a confrontation with D'Spayre, a demon with a very fitting name, because he exists to make people despair to the point of killing themselves or lashing out at the world. Given what happened in the Clone Conspiracy, it'd be fairly easy to retcon in that he had a hand in Ben going as unhinged as he went at the end. (Yes, Ben did encounter him once, and recalled said encounter when D'Spayre went after Peter in the aftermath of Maximum Clonage.)

Oh, and I fully agree with bringing back the impact webbing, stingers, and microdot tracers and coming up with more new inventions to aid him in crime-fighting, as well as putting some blond back in his hair. The only thing I would take issue with is not having Kaine around as much, as the tension between him and Ben makes for very compelling reading to me, especially given how their moral alignments have inverted from where they were in the 90s. Hell, I would retool Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider into a "Scarlet Spiders" series that focuses on Ben and Kaine, both damaged and twisted "reflections" of Peter Parker/Spider-Man in their own ways, and trying to grow beyond that into better people. And yes, Ben getting some damn therapy would help that growth immensely.

[Obsidian Spider]

Some really great ideas here.

I think we can all agree we'd like to see Ben blonde again and using impact webbing. Damn right.

Hunstman Spider, your idea for Ben to discover a child he never knew he had is an INCREDIBLE notion! He needs something to live for and what better than a child? ALSO, that would give him something that Peter doesn't have. Wow. I really think this is important. This would lead naturally into Spiderfang's idea of having Ben seek therapy, which I think makes a lot of sense and is always a narrative device with legs.

Hunstman Spider, you read my mind with a SCARLET SPIDERS ongoing series. I feel like Marvel would be more likely to do this than continue on with Ben's series and it's okay sales. Lord knows Marvel loves a new #1!

That said, I have a bit of a fan fiction plot I think could work really well as an end to BEN REILLY: SCARLET SPIDER and lead into a SCARLET SPIDERS series. I'd love your feedback on the following post:

[Obsidian Spider]

What if Ben was tempted with a reset button?

We’ve established that Ben’s soul may not survive another resurrection. But what if he found another lab that had some of his DNA from the first time he turned to dust? What if he could be reborn in a new clone body with the memories of only his first heroic death? And what if it could only work once?

Would he risk his soul to lose all the tortuous memories since the Jackal brought him back to life?

He could create the clone and have it ready to go. When he inevitably decides to go for it he knows that he could start the resurrection process and kill himself at the same time but would rather have someone there with him. Who better than Kaine who has recently wanted to kill Ben anyway?

Kaine actually tries to talk him out of it, no longer wanting Ben to die. Kaine has finally come to empathize with his brother’s situation, knowing all too well what it’s like to have lived a life of pain and doing bad things as a result.

They have a good punch fest over it. Ben begging to be put out of his misery and Kaine calling it a cop out. They’re so busy fighting each other they don’t notice a clone tank open in the dark. A large shadowy figure emerges and looms towards them, unseen.

Kaine gets the upper hand in the end, standing over Ben, ripping off their masks and they have a touching "reflective" moment as they look at each other. Kaine would say something like "We may look like Peter but we'll never be him. But we can be us." The fight seems over when Kaine is suddenly hit from behind, knocking him into Ben and both of them fly across the room.

They recover, looking up to see... SPIDERCIDE!

“S’up, bros?”

That’s an issue-ending moment.

Next issue, Spidercide would explain that the Jackal programmed him to fulfill a plan to wipe out humanity and replace them with clones. Kaine looks at Ben. Ben gets defensive. “Jeez, you try to wipe out humanity ONE time and they never let you live it down.”

The Scarlet Bros take on Spidercide but it’s not going so good for them. At one point, Spidercide is about to kill Ben when Kaine jumps in the way, getting impaled by Spidercide’s arm that has been shape-shifted into a blade.

Kaine dies the same way Ben did at the end of Revelations, sacrificing himself for his brother and cementing his hero status.

Spidercide makes some remark about Kaine being worthless and Ben loses it. He goes at Spidercide with everything he’s got, screaming about history repeating itself (Yay, Maximum Clonage!) Ben looks to be winning and is about to finish Spidercide by electrocuting him like last time but Spidercide has learned from his mistakes. He avoids the power grid Ben hits him towards and kicks Ben’s ass easily, revealing that he was just letting Ben think he was winning to mess with him.

Spidercide then bids Ben farewell and disappears into the night to go trigger the end of humanity.

Ben is left with a dead Kaine and a choice to make. Resurrect himself or his brother?

He, of course, does the heroic thing and resurrects Kaine. So, while he doesn’t get the clean slate memory he feels he needs to become the hero he once was, in so doing, he has ALSO made a heroic sacrifice.

He realizes there is no such thing as a reset button. If he resurrected himself from the moment after the Goblin killed him, that would be a different person. An innocent version of him that could possibly even be held responsible for what Ben 27 has done. And would his soul go into that body or not? Who knows?

No. If he wants to be a hero again, he needs to earn it.

Kaine wakes up, incredulous.

Ben: “If I don’t get off that easy, neither do you.”

They share a moment of mutual respect and do the forearm handshake.

Masks on. Back to business. They are partners and brothers now and there is a super villain they have the power and responsibility to stop.

scarlets.jpg

[Spiderfang]

Some really great ideas here.

I think we can all agree we'd like to see Ben blonde again and using impact webbing. Damn right.

Hunstman Spider, your idea for Ben to discover a child he never knew he had is an INCREDIBLE notion! He needs something to live for and what better than a child? ALSO, that would give him something that Peter doesn't have. Wow. I really think this is important. This would lead naturally into Spiderfang's idea of having Ben seek therapy, which I think makes a lot of sense and is always a narrative device with legs.

Hunstman Spider, you read my mind with a SCARLET SPIDERS ongoing series. I feel like Marvel would be more likely to do this than continue on with Ben's series and it's okay sales. Lord knows Marvel loves a new #1!

That said, I have a bit of a fan fiction plot I think could work really well as end end to BEN REILLY: SCARLET SPIDER and lead into a SCARLET SPIDERS series. I'd love your feedback on the following post:

I'd still like to see Kaine given his own unique moniker like Crimson Spider or Crimson Arachnid, w/e (being that Ben is the original Scarlet Spider).

BTW your art is amazing, hope you post more in the Ben Reilly thread.

[Obsidian Spider]

I'd still like to see Kaine given his own unique moniker like Crimson Spider or Crimson Arachnid, w/e (being that Ben is the original Scarlet Spider).

BTW your art is amazing, hope you post more in the Ben Reilly thread.

Much appreciated! How many Ben Reilly threads are there, by the way? I just discovered this one by visiting someone’s recent comments. A search for scarlet spider doesn’t give the results I was expecting.

[Vworp Vworp]

1) Reveal current not-Ben to be a new character. Which would be entirely plausible, given that he has none of Ben's personality and seemingly few of his memories.
2) Get rid.
3) Bring back original Ben. Doesn't really matter how. It's not like Not-Ben's origin is all that solid anyway.
4) Ditch Kaine. As a supporting character at least.

[Huntsman Spider]

1) Reveal current not-Ben to be a new character. Which would be entirely plausible, given that he has none of Ben's personality and seemingly few of his memories.
2) Get rid.
3) Bring back original Ben. Doesn't really matter how. It's not like Not-Ben's origin is all that solid anyway.
4) Ditch Kaine. As a supporting character at least.

The funny thing is that the "original" Ben Reilly could have easily still been alive, after all, just stashed away to be tortured by Norman Osborn as a proxy for Peter while Osborn had a clone created to believe he was Ben and die at the end of Revelations. Eventually, Ben could escape and after seeing that Peter was Spider-Man again, he'd try his best to disappear, not wanting to interfere with Peter's life any further, but driven to look out for him by any means necessary. His torture at Osborn's hands would have hardened him somewhat and made him focus on completely destroying Norman's operations, not just with his spider-strength and other powers, but also with his own intelligence. In a sense, he would be Peter's guardian angel, avoiding being seen or noticed by Peter (easy when their spider-senses don't react to each other, their identical DNA causing their spider-senses to register each other as "self"), but nonetheless protecting Peter and his family in ways Peter isn't aware of . . . or would necessarily approve, if you want to put him in somewhat morally grayer territory without making him an outright villain as The Clone Conspiracy did to the current iteration of Ben Reilly.

That aside, I really do like your idea for launching a new Scarlet Spiders series as well, Obsidian Spider, and the scenario you set up would be an excellent way to redeem the current Ben. As for giving Kaine his own alias, Recluse or Wanderer sounds good to me (after different species of spider, the brown recluse and the wandering spider, that are known to be quite deadly, befitting Kaine's role as a "darker" Spider-Man).

[Obsidian Spider]

The funny thing is that the "original" Ben Reilly could have easily still been alive, after all, just stashed away to be tortured by Norman Osborn as a proxy for Peter while Osborn had a clone created to believe he was Ben and die at the end of Revelations. Eventually, Ben could escape and after seeing that Peter was Spider-Man again, he'd try his best to disappear, not wanting to interfere with Peter's life any further, but driven to look out for him by any means necessary. His torture at Osborn's hands would have hardened him somewhat and made him focus on completely destroying Norman's operations, not just with his spider-strength and other powers, but also with his own intelligence. In a sense, he would be Peter's guardian angel, avoiding being seen or noticed by Peter (easy when their spider-senses don't react to each other, their identical DNA causing their spider-senses to register each other as "self"), but nonetheless protecting Peter and his family in ways Peter isn't aware of . . . or would necessarily approve, if you want to put him in somewhat morally grayer territory without making him an outright villain as The Clone Conspiracy did to the current iteration of Ben Reilly.

That aside, I really do like your idea for launching a new Scarlet Spiders series as well, Obsidian Spider, and the scenario you set up would be an excellent way to redeem the current Ben. As for giving Kaine his own alias, Recluse or Wanderer sounds good to me (after different species of spider, the brown recluse and the wandering spider, that are known to be quite deadly, befitting Kaine's role as a "darker" Spider-Man).

That’s a pretty interesting idea to have Ben be Peter’s guardian angel. Would have been a cool way to go.

What I really want is a Scarlet Spiders cartoon (as you can see from my illustration)!

If they had Ben be more light-hearted and Kaine be the broody one and make it like an animated Supernatural type show. They could go around the country investigating New U clones that have gone wrong. Each one would have a unique degeneration that gives them some x-files freak-of-the-week powers. Have a mysterious bad guy triggering all of these degenerations and pulling the Scarlet Bros strings for the season. We’d be led to believe it’s the Jackal (the obvious choice) but have it be a Gwen clone or something.

ALSO, we need to have them discover another of Jackal’s facilities with a clean slate Peter clone that they wake up but he wasn’t fully baked, mentally. Give him all the powers but have him dumb as a rock. That type of character always makes for great comic relief.

[boots]

the blonde hair was around a far shorter time than his natural colour. it's funny how these things take root in public consciousness

i'd also like to see a return to his inventiveness, which i always saw as a way of him validating himself.

as for how to make it great? that's a pretty big order. i think ben allows us to tell peter stories that can't be told with peter.... there's something in there.

[Spiderfang]

the blonde hair was around a far shorter time than his natural colour. it's funny how these things take root in public consciousness

i'd also like to see a return to his inventiveness, which i always saw as a way of him validating himself.

as for how to make it great? that's a pretty big order. i think ben allows us to tell peter stories that can't be told with peter.... there's something in there.

I think plenty of people are aware that being blonde came later, it's just a preference that a lot of people have and would like to see him wear again.

[boots]

I think plenty of people are aware that being blonde came later, it's just a preference that a lot of people have and would like to see him wear again.

yeah, it's pretty clear my point wasn't about raising hair awareness. essentially i'm amused that it has its fans in context, when it had such a short shelf life and was so hated at the time


but if you want to talk popularity, by the time ben went blonde, his sales were already in trouble. his height of popularity was the long brown locks ben. but i don't reckon there's any solid data on it. maybe start a poll lol

i have stronger doubts that it would elevate the title to greatness though