The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi

[Starter Set]

They took more risks in TLJ, but in the end it was just as much checking boxes as TFA. The difference is that in TLJ they were devoted to subverting the story beats of Empire. Once you figure that out, you can predict nearly every major event in the film.

Once you understand that this new trilogy only defines itself by how close or far it is from the original one, then you understand how tremendously the people involved in those projects have failed.

Those movies are doomed to be nothing more than pale echoes of their predecessors. Why Luke? Why Han? Why vomiting over what was done before when a fresh, strong start with new things could have been done?

Aim small, accomplish small.

[Carabas]

Once you understand that this new trilogy only defines itself by how close or far it is from the original one...

No, that is how some fans define it.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Agreed. To be honest, as much as I love TLJ, I still have conflicted feelings about the direction they took Luke. And I feel like if Lucasfilm could go back in time, they'd take a less divisive approach. Because no matter how one feels about TLJ, it's hard to deny that it damaged Star Wars' 'big tent' franchise appeal. There are fans of the OT that feel like they've been disregarded. That's not the best path forward.

Indeed. I think there's a feeling that they only tore Luke down to build Rey up and that would definitley have a negative effect on thier perception. At least from what I've read.

[Gray Lensman]

Indeed. I think there's a feeling that they only tore Luke down to build Rey up and that would definitley have a negative effect on thier perception. At least from what I've read.

Considering how Poe was detrimental for most of the film and Finn's side quest results in the escape ships being discovered I was left with the feeling that they were tearing down everyone to prop up Rey, not just Luke. The only non-Rey characters who have dramatic and positive effect on events give thier lives to do so.

[Serpico Jones]

Most ridiculous scene in TLJ was when Leia told everyone to follow Poe...even though he had just gotten hundreds of people killed.

[David Walton]

Indeed. I think there's a feeling that they only tore Luke down to build Rey up and that would definitley have a negative effect on thier perception. At least from what I've read.

There's definitely a feeling among some that's what happened, though to what extent it's been magnified by the internet is hard to say.

Looking at the film objectively, Rey isn't portrayed as perfect. Luke is right about Kylo Ren, but she doesn't listen and walks right into Snoke's trap (much like Luke rushed into Bespin in spite of Yoda's warnings).

[David Walton]

Most ridiculous scene in TLJ was when Leia told everyone to follow Poe...even though he had just gotten hundreds of people killed.

It's consistent with the internal logic of the Star Wars universe, which takes mutiny about as seriously as smuggling. Leia sees Poe's potential just like she saw Han's. And at this point Poe understands the error of his ways and his realization that there's a back way out saves what's left of the Resistance.

[David Walton]

Considering how Poe was detrimental for most of the film and Finn's side quest results in the escape ships being discovered I was left with the feeling that they were tearing down everyone to prop up Rey, not just Luke. The only non-Rey characters who have dramatic and positive effect on events give thier lives to do so.

On the flip side, this leads to Holdo taking out the Supremacy, which is basically the First Order's capital city. So there is that!

[Vegeta]

There's definitely a feeling among some that's what happened, though to what extent it's been magnified by the internet is hard to say.

Looking at the film objectively, Rey isn't portrayed as perfect. Luke is right about Kylo Ren, but she doesn't listen and walks right into Snoke's trap (much like Luke rushed into Bespin in spite of Yoda's warnings).

She also walked right out of that trap, and got Kylo to kill Snoke to boot. Whereas Luke got his hand cut off, and ended up needing to be rescued by his friends.

[Carabas]

...and got Kylo to kill Snoke to boot.

I don't believe she should get any credit for that.

[David Walton]

She also walked right out of that trap, and got Kylo to kill Snoke to boot. Whereas Luke got his hand cut off, and ended up needing to be rescued by his friends.

It wasn't her intention, though, and it's not like Kylo Ren is any better than Snoke. You've traded one villain for another.

Also of note, Luke was originally going to join Rey to help the Resistance, but she lost her temper when he tried to warn her about Kylo Ren. They flesh that scene out a bit more in the novel.

So Rey can be hotheaded and impulsive, too.

[Vic Vega]

TFA was a well made crowd pleaser (that desperately HAD to be given the bad taste the prequels left in nearly everyone's mouths). TLJ might be as challenging as
a multi million dollar franchise flick can get these days.

Consider how big a deal the previous movies make (both directly and indirectly) about lineage. And how TLJ pretty much calls
B.S. on the entire concept.

[SpiderClops]

I don't believe she should get any credit for that.

I agree with this. Rey was not the one who turned Kylo against Snoke. He did that by himself.

[Vegeta]

It wasn't her intention, though, and it's not like Kylo Ren is any better than Snoke. You've traded one villain for another.

Also of note, Luke was originally going to join Rey to help the Resistance, but she lost her temper when he tried to warn her about Kylo Ren. They flesh that scene out a bit more in the novel.

So Rey can be hotheaded and impulsive, too.

Had she not been there, Kylo would have never attempted it. He thought he could convince her to join him in ruling the galaxy, and it also gave him an ally in combating the Praetorian Guards. Rey "fails" spectacularly upward in any given scenario.

ESB is a lesson in humility for Luke, he loses a limb and his friend Han Solo is left frozen in carbonite. Whereas Rey's defiance only had positive effects. Snoke is killed (Which is one less powerful Dark Side Force User to deal with) and Kylo ends up knocked out so she can easily escape off camera and rescue the Rebellion in Crait.

Considering much of the novelization was written in reaction to address complaints with the film (such as adding a funeral scene for the immediately forgotten Han Solo, whoops!) I don't see it as an actual part of the movie.

[David Walton]

Had she not been there, Kylo would have never attempted it. He thought he could convince her to join him in ruling the galaxy, and it also gave him an ally in combating the Praetorian Guards. Rey "fails" spectacularly upward in any given scenario.

ESB is a lesson in humility for Luke, he loses a limb and his friend Han Solo is left frozen in carbonite. Whereas Rey's defiance only had positive effects. Snoke is killed (Which is one less powerful Dark Side Force User to deal with) and Kylo ends up knocked out so she can easily escape off camera and rescue the Rebellion in Crait.

I get that, but I would say you're forgetting that Rey gets an answer she doesn't like about her parents from Kylo Ren. And just as Luke avoided the temptation to join Vader, she doesn't allow Kylo to exploit that particular vulnerability to his advantage. So it's like Luke's story, a mixture of decisions good and bad along with a healthy dose of dumb luck and improvisation.

Considering much of the novelization was written in reaction to address complaints with the film (such as adding a funeral scene for the immediately forgotten Han Solo, whoops!) I don't see it as an actual part of the movie.

Fry worked with Rian Johnson on the novelization, so I'd say it's true to his vision. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but I don't get the impression that it's a reaction to complaints about TLJ. I think it was just an opportunity to flesh out ideas and add scenes that wouldn't have worked in the film. And I highly recommend the novel. It really does add some context and enrich the story told in the film.