View Poll Results: Which is the better Seauel Trilogy film thus far?

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  • The Force Awakens

    43 58.90%
  • The Last Jedi

    30 41.10%
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    It wasn't her intention, though, and it's not like Kylo Ren is any better than Snoke. You've traded one villain for another.
    He might be worse.

    An impulsive man-child with an ax to grind is head of a Galactic Power.

    Snoke may have had no greater plan than eradicating the what was left of the Jedi, at least that is SOMETHING.

    I don't think even Kylo knows what he is going to do next.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    He might be worse.

    An impulsive man-child with an ax to grind is head of a Galactic Power.

    Snoke may have had no greater plan than eradicating the what was left of the Jedi, at least that is SOMETHING.

    I don't think even Kylo knows what he is going to do next.
    Oh, definitely. He could be much worse. Or it could be six of one, half a dozen of the other. Neither of them are terribly concerned with anyone's welfare but their own.

    It will be really interesting to see how they develop Kylo Ren now that he's freed of the traditional Sith master/apprentice rivalry.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    It wasn't her intention, though, and it's not like Kylo Ren is any better than Snoke. You've traded one villain for another.

    Also of note, Luke was originally going to join Rey to help the Resistance, but she lost her temper when he tried to warn her about Kylo Ren. They flesh that scene out a bit more in the novel.

    So Rey can be hotheaded and impulsive, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I get that, but I would say you're forgetting that Rey gets an answer she doesn't like about her parents from Kylo Ren. And just as Luke avoided the temptation to join Vader, she doesn't allow Kylo to exploit that particular vulnerability to his advantage. So it's like Luke's story, a mixture of decisions good and bad along with a healthy dose of dumb luck and improvisation.



    Fry worked with Rian Johnson on the novelization, so I'd say it's true to his vision. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but I don't get the impression that it's a reaction to complaints about TLJ. I think it was just an opportunity to flesh out ideas and add scenes that wouldn't have worked in the film. And I highly recommend the novel. It really does add some context and enrich the story told in the film.
    I never got the impression Luke was going to leave the island anytime soon and I don't think we should give the movie credit for stuff in the novelization. The movie should stand on it's own merits and failings.

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    He might be worse.

    An impulsive man-child with an ax to grind is head of a Galactic Power.

    Snoke may have had no greater plan than eradicating the what was left of the Jedi, at least that is SOMETHING.

    I don't think even Kylo knows what he is going to do next.
    That is one of the biggest things I hated about TLJ. You have all the troops just falling in behind an unstable man child. I could see them following Snoke he had the brains and presence to lead men. Kylo is like that crazy madman you keep on a leash until it is time to let him go and let him kill people. Even if you were raised to follow orders watching Ren would not inspire loyality. He cares nothing for the troops under his command and treats those right under him with contempt.

    Of coarse the First Order in TLJ were all complete cartoon characters anyway. They all come off as morons.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I never got the impression Luke was going to leave the island anytime soon and I don't think we should give the movie credit for stuff in the novelization. The movie should stand on it's own merits and failings.
    I get that. As I've said before, I think subtlety is both a strength and a flaw in TLJ. Some ideas don't come across as clearly as they should. But there's a tradeoff for that approach. Because everything isn't spelled out for the audience, Mark Hamill is able to convey a lot through body language and his best live-action performance for the franchise.

    And I wouldn't say the novel is necessary to enjoy the film, I just think it complements the experience well. It's not redundant IMO.
    Last edited by David Walton; 06-11-2018 at 07:30 AM.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Of coarse the First Order in TLJ were all complete cartoon characters anyway. They all come off as morons.
    I'm still kinda surprised at how much of a pointless character Phasma turned out to be. Call me naive but i was on the "they are going to do something cool with that character" side before the movie was released.

    Well, i also was on that side with Luke and Snoke mind you lol. It seems that i just keep being wrong.

    One of the worst offender from the Order still is Hux though. I always have been more of a rebellion/rebelliontheycallresistancenow kind of guy and never thought much of empire personnel being depicted as really, really terrible/dumb soldiers in pretty much all movies but even for me the humiliation that poor man had to endure was painful to watch. To the point that you can't help to wonder how in all hells that dude has landed the job.
    "A bottomless pit is the safest place to be"

  7. #97
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    I'm still kinda surprised at how much of a pointless character Phasma turned out to be. Call me naive but i was on the "they are going to do something cool with that character" side before the movie was released.

    Well, i also was on that side with Luke and Snoke mind you lol. It seems that i just keep being wrong.

    One of the worst offender from the Order still is Hux though. I always have been more of a rebellion/rebelliontheycallresistancenow kind of guy and never thought much of empire personnel being depicted as really, really terrible/dumb soldiers in pretty much all movies but even for me the humiliation that poor man had to endure was painful to watch. To the point that you can't help to wonder how in all hells that dude has landed the job.
    I knew someone was doomed the moment I saw Phasma vs Finn teased in the previews. Either Finn becomes the guy who loses every fight he gets into (risking becoming the black comedy relief character) or Phasma becomes the next Boba Fett (given a rep completely out of line with what we see on screen).

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    I'm still kinda surprised at how much of a pointless character Phasma turned out to be. Call me naive but i was on the "they are going to do something cool with that character" side before the movie was released.
    They actually did do something really cool with Phasma...but unfortunately, it's just an alternate scene for TLJ. They never even filled in all the SFX. The thing about Phasma is TFA builds her up as a loyal super-soldier and then she folds the first time she's got a blaster to her head. That was kind of baffling. In the scene they never used, Finn calls her out in front of her stormtroopers for giving them the codes for Starkiller. Before the stormtroopers can act, Phasma kills them. The rest of the scene plays out pretty much as it did in the movie. But it tells you something about Phasma that the final cut didn't. She's not loyal to the First Order, she's simply a survivor. She'll sell out whatever cause she claims as soon as it's the practical thing to do.

    There's a Phasma novel that's really good. spoilers:
    Phasma was the leader of a tribe on post-apocalyptic planet. Brendol Hux, Armitage Hux's father, crashed on the planet and she helped him survive and sold out her former tribe. He gave her a position training his troops, but she eventually killed him under Armitage Hux's orders (mostly to keep the secret of her origins safe).
    end of spoilers

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Interesting. I should try that novel, it sounds promising.
    "A bottomless pit is the safest place to be"

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    One of the worst offender from the Order still is Hux though. I always have been more of a rebellion/rebelliontheycallresistancenow kind of guy and never thought much of empire personnel being depicted as really, really terrible/dumb soldiers in pretty much all movies but even for me the humiliation that poor man had to endure was painful to watch. To the point that you can't help to wonder how in all hells that dude has landed the job.
    Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. He doesn't like or trust Kylo so there's a pretty good chance he'll secretly or actively undermine him in the next film. In the books he's already spoilers:
    had his father assassinated
    end of spoilers.

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Interesting. I should try that novel, it sounds promising.
    It is a really enjoyable book. Especially if you like the Mad Max meets Star Wars concept. Which, who wouldn't?

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    They actually did do something really cool with Phasma...but unfortunately, it's just an alternate scene for TLJ. They never even filled in all the SFX. The thing about Phasma is TFA builds her up as a loyal super-soldier and then she folds the first time she's got a blaster to her head. That was kind of baffling. In the scene they never used, Finn calls her out in front of her stormtroopers for giving them the codes for Starkiller. Before the stormtroopers can act, Phasma kills them. The rest of the scene plays out pretty much as it did in the movie. But it tells you something about Phasma that the final cut didn't. She's not loyal to the First Order, she's simply a survivor. She'll sell out whatever cause she claims as soon as it's the practical thing to do.

    There's a Phasma novel that's really good. spoilers:
    Phasma was the leader of a tribe on post-apocalyptic planet. Brendol Hux, Armitage Hux's father, crashed on the planet and she helped him survive and sold out her former tribe. He gave her a position training his troops, but she eventually killed him under Armitage Hux's orders (mostly to keep the secret of her origins safe).
    end of spoilers
    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. He doesn't like or trust Kylo so there's a pretty good chance he'll secretly or actively undermine him in the next film. In the books he's already spoilers:
    had his father assassinated
    end of spoilers.
    Thing is not everyone is going to read the novels and the biggest outlier is how he's treated in the movies. In TFA Hux was a rabid zealot but he still held menace. After TLJ however the aura of menace around him is gone. I feel like I could beat him as my regular self. Really Kylo's the only villan with any presence of intimidation left. The Novel for Phasma sounds interesting and is the Phasma I wish we got in TLJ Instead she's just used as a prop rather than an actual villain.

  13. #103
    Fantastic Member Tugger's Avatar
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    I finally gave in and watched TLJ after a year and I really enjoyed it, both as part of the SW franchise and as a film in general.

    Shame RJ isn't directing E9 but it bodes well for the trilogy he is developing.

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