The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi

[BobfromHR]

For me the Force Awakens did what it set out to do, and that is wipe away the ill feelings of the prequels and set the new era on a solid footing going forward. TLJ then came in and undermined so much of what was set up in TFA and sent the whole franchise spinning. While TFA did lean quite a bit into ANH it almost had to just to get things set up moving forward. TLJ just had so many "WTF are they thinking?!?" moments and just plain bad ideas slapped together it will always be the worse of the two for me.

I was excited for the next Star Wars movie after TFA. I was so disapointed with TLJ that I am not at all excited for Episode 9, and even less so for Rian Johnson's new trilogy he is working on.

And just to set the record straight it is not because "TLJ was not the movie I had built up in my head" which is the line the die hard TLJ supporters always throw out there. It is because to me TLJ was a deeply flawed movie storytelling wise with just way to many plotholes and dumb choices on top of very weak character development outside of Rey and Kylo. Every other character just came off as dull and lifeless.

Pretty much me. Within 5 minutes of the movie starting when Poe tells a yo' momma joke I had a bad feeling about what was happening. It never got better.

TLJ was a mess through and through.

Does anyone here think people will care about Rose or Holdo in 5 years let alone 30?

[Sacred Knight]

Not really, the prequels have a better story than the originals and sequels and the cast is also pretty good (the actors have given a really memorable scenes which stayed with me all these years which can't be said about the sequels). The biggest problem they suffered from is editing.

The prequels have by far the more interesting story to tell, but it botched it in way too many places. The cast is hit-and-miss. McGregor? Fantastic. McDiarmid? Fantastic. Neeson was great, and as always Frank Oz was a delight as Yoda. Sadly Anakin was miscast twice. Portman phoned in her performance. And cnsidering that Anakin IS the story and Padme was key, those are major, major blunders. Beyond that the problems were far more than editing. The main issue is that Lucas refused work within the already small framework that the OT provided for the past. He instead chose to rewrite key facts from the originals to suit the prequels instead of the other way around, harming the sense and integrity of the history.

[Rise]

Don't agree with that. Jake was good for a child actor and Hayden was a great choice as Anakin (his scene when his mother died in his arms, when he found out that he is going to be a father, his scene in mustafar and many more).

The originals weren't harmed in any way in the prequels. If anything, they were given more depth thanks to the prequels who enriched the sw univeres and made the story more meaningful.

[Bunai]

The Force Awakens introduced three characters of interest. We knew their personalities, goals, and future character growth.

The Last Jedi wants you to feel bad for an adult man that kills people and then blames everyone else. Character growth is stopped and energy is put into a subplot that wasn't meant to be a plot to begin with.

[Carabas]

Portman phoned in her performance.

She didn't. She gave the performance the director wanted.

And cnsidering that Anakin IS the story and Padme was key, those are major, major blunders.

Yeah they were, but its not on the actors but on the director and on the way Lucas decided to make the movie.
It's tough to play a romantic scene when the actors are never on camera together but saying their lines in isolation against a green screen a few dozen times and the director later picking the takes where they sound the least emotional and splicing them together.

He instead chose to rewrite key facts from the originals to suit the prequels instead of the other way around, harming the sense and integrity of the history.

This I'm not really bothered with at all.
Going back to the original trilogy and replacing Boba Fett's creepy sounding voice actor though... ouch.

And how much better would the story have been if they had gone with an actor instead of a stunt man for Darth Maul and had kept him as the main visible antagonist for all three movies?

[Pinsir]

Has anyone considered that films need not have a message to be good or great? Godfather was mafia film. There's nothing good about that. And its a masterpiece. Deadpool shall be condemned if we are looking at messages. Its okay to kill people left and right while having fun?

True, not every piece of media is intended to insight virtuous behavior among its attendees, but Star Wars at its heart has always been a morality play and, despite zig zagging away from most expectations, The Last Jedi follows suit. The general moral of The Last Jedi being that, sometimes things go awry and so long as you don't lose hope there is still an opportunity to set things right, which is pretty much the same thing as The Empire Strikes Back.

I do think you are undervaluing the messages in films that on the surface appear to be about just mindlessly killing people. You really don't have to look hard to find articles deconstructing Scareface and the themes the film has about race, violence, materialism, etc.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

So here's a thought. after thinking about it for sometime I think TLJ's biggest flaw is that it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. It's seem about as conflicted as Kylo Ren on how it takes it's status as a sequel. I noticed some people from both those who like it and those who hate it argue this is the philosophy of TLJ. There's also how it flips flops on whether sacrifice is a good or bad thing.

I think it has a mix of good ideas and bad ideas. A deconstruction can work even in Star Wars but there has to be a counter argument. A reconstruction for lack of a better term. I think Kotor 2 pulled of the deconstruction idea very well for example. Though I might be slightly bias since and RPG gives players more agency then a movie does it's audience.

[motherofpearl1]

The Force Awakens is an unashamed crowd pleaser.
But The Last Jedi is a better film that aims higher IMO.

Yes. I really enjoyed The Force Awakens. But The Last Jedi boldly went where no Star Wars film has. Many hated it. But I loved it.

[motherofpearl1]

Don't agree with that. Jake was good for a child actor and Hayden was a great choice as Anakin (his scene when his mother died in his arms, when he found out that he is going to be a father, his scene in mustafar and many more).

The originals weren't harmed in any way in the prequels. If anything, they were given more depth thanks to the prequels who enriched the sw univeres and made the story more meaningful.

I thought Hayden was a great Anakin, it was the script in Attack of the Clones which let him down. The strongest part of the prequels for me is they portrayed the Jedi as less than saintly, from their tolerance of slavery to Obi Wan's abandonment of the horribly injured Anakin. It would have been kinder to put him out of his misery

[motherofpearl1]

The Force Awakens introduced three characters of interest. We knew their personalities, goals, and future character growth.

The Last Jedi wants you to feel bad for an adult man that kills people and then blames everyone else. Character growth is stopped and energy is put into a subplot that wasn't meant to be a plot to begin with.

Rey to Kylo: "You're a monster." Kylo to Rey: "Yes. I am." Didn't sound like he was blaming anyone but himself.

[The Negative Zone]

While I loved The Force Awakens for introducing me to new characters, I prefer The Last Jedi for having a more creative plot.

[David Walton]

Does anyone here think people will care about Rose or Holdo in 5 years let alone 30?

Yes, I think so.

[motherofpearl1]

Pretty certain they'll remember Kylo. And Rey.

[David Walton]

So here's a thought. after thinking about it for sometime I think TLJ's biggest flaw is that it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. It's seem about as conflicted as Kylo Ren on how it takes it's status as a sequel. I noticed some people from both those who like it and those who hate it argue this is the philosophy of TLJ. There's also how it flips flops on whether sacrifice is a good or bad thing.

I can see the confusion about Finn's sacrifice, but I think it's just a case of the film attempting to provide two different contexts, one in which sacrifice is noble and necessary and the other in which it's emotionally driven and impractical. The idea is that Finn's sacrifice won't change the outcome. That said, it's not entirely clear in the film that Finn's suicide run wouldn't actually make a difference. I'm not entirely sure it would even take the cannon out at this point, but even if he did, the Resistance is still stuck there with no way out until Poe finds the way out and Rey opens it for them.

I do think TLJ works with more complex arguments than previous SW films, and maybe that's why the message is sometimes misunderstood. A lot of fans assume that Kylo Ren's "let the past die" is the film's philosophy, too. After all, isn't this the movie where Yoda encourages Luke to burn the sacred texts? Except...not exactly. Rey has the sacred texts with her and Yoda knew that when he said that everything she needs she already possesses. But that moment where you see the texts in the Falcon flashes by so quickly that many people miss it, especially on a first viewing.

I think THE LAST JEDI knows exactly what it wants to be, but there's a risk involved when complex arguments are given room to breathe. And so much in the film depends on context and reading subtext. Rian Johnson doesn't spell things out as clearly as Lucas and Abrams, for better and for worse.

[Starter Set]

Force Awakens is entertaining enough.

I rank the last jedi lower than the phantom menace.

So yeah, my vote goes to the remake of a new hope.