Sinestro vs Zoom

[Pendaran]

Well, what about earlier when Superman knocked Primaid silly with one blow?

That's exaggerating what happened. She let out an "ukk" and was standing rubbing at her chin on the next page.

In fact, I don't think there was even any fire on panel when he took Protex to the earth's core. It just got hot. It wasn't even molten yet iirc.

So, to be clear, Protex wasn't demanding to know why his powers were starting to stop working? The entire presentation wasn't that the presence of lava/magma was triggering the fire weakness?

Wonder Woman did one up just fine in 1v1 space combat also.

By Wonder Woman's own words, her victory came as much due to Primaid running out of breath before she did as anything.

Zum wasn't just hurt, he was seemingly properly KO'd for quite some time

He was up and fighting again by the next issue, it's not like he went into a coma.

[Pendaran]

Relevant scans to follow:

https://imgur.com/a/CRohw

she says "ukk" and falls back

Here is the next page, she is all of rubbing at her chin while upright:

https://imgur.com/a/JiLQc

It's not much more than she did to Superman by smashing into him. And if you're going to seize on that to run with "then they're weaker than Superman!", she was still strong enough to smash him down out of the sky, which is again fine, compare to trying "actually they suck.

[Pendaran]

This is Protex:

https://imgur.com/a/4kmcx

https://imgur.com/a/xMbHg

If you are arguing that this is not the comic presenting him as being weakened by being taken towards magma, then you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the comic book.

[The Dork Knight]

Just a quick note, a considerable amount of the other times they have hurt these sorts of people have not required continent wide run ups, even just your own Jay Garrick example. If you consider those to be valid, this isn't really the standard to require being met here.

To repeat an earlier point that you might have missed, Jay Garrick doesn't even floor Black Adam with one sided blitzes. Fights 1 and 2

https://s9.postimg.org/nlfxo3a0v/RCO012.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...m+vs+jsa+3.jpg

Adam stays standing as a red blur wails on him from all sides. If he can't even take him off his feet like that, "hurting" here does not seem to amount to much. The argument could be made I suppose that Adam looks like he is falling over (though we don't actually see it) with the first punch with a run up, which only proves my point re- run ups are needed to really affect the class 100 crowd

If Jay can "hurt" a class 100 only so much (and I'll get to Wallys examples further below) with extended blitzes then it would seem the class 100 in question will require a LOT more blows to go down than you envisage

There's hurting and "hurting" is what I'm saying.

If Wally can do something like the Human Race, while running (not the parts where he is being amped by everyone on Earth), the speed buildup stuff should not really take much time to do, if even needed

The Human race has Jonn specifically reading /making out his thoughts as he enters the speed force and goes his fastest in that sequence before the speed lend stuff. J'onn has difficulty yes but this is the only time in the story Wally runs so fast that he nearly loses himself in the speed force. I'm not sure that's the greatest example to use is what I'm saying

Then that goes outside the full context of their encounters. And again, this is a not 100% Adam for whatever that's worth.*

He has someone else controlling his body I grant you but there seems little reason to believe he was less competent than usual when he does up the entire JSA line up better than he would in subsequent encounters, including against a heavyweight like Dr Fate

That is the logical consequence of holding onto this showing the way you are. The only thing you get out of this showing is that if this is what Jay can do, Wally should do so much better. And Zoom is even faster than he is.*

But Jay doesn't do much is the point here. Yes Wally will get in more hits but much better? What's this based on?

Okay, so again, before anything else, that's straight up leaving the arena.

Flying up has never been "leaving the arena". And in case they'd not need to leave the arena at all but even if they did they'd just return under their own power

And unless you're arguing that they're going to do the thunderclap at ftl now, it will still be coming together at the speed of molasses for the Flash. They have to leave at speed where they can still get the clap off while close enough to still hit the area with it. The Flash can still keep punching them up just fine because that will mean they're doing it that slowly from his perspective. Let alone Zooms

Oh sure they're getting punched as they're leaving but it's a relatively easy thing to thunderclap as they're flying up, yes it will be coming at the speed of molasses relative to Flash, it's still another issue to be dealt with.

Alternatively they clap on the ground and hit the boosters immediately after. The flight upwards being well faster than the spread of the wave, but also buying them a little more time to do their thing

Or they could just fly up directly and keep blanketing area attacks from above till the whole arena is enveloped and Flash sees death coming at slow motion

Either/or

Don't see why the Flash can't phase through a shockwave. I'm also thin on Superman rifling off as a one off move a not only blankets the entire area energy blast (because even there, phasing aside, there's the "move behind Superman" option) but even in the spaces where it isn't, the temperature is so elevated that the Flash now burns up.

Also, again, the blast is going to emerge so slowly from the Flash's perspective that the Flash can keep beating him up as it forms, making again for an at absolute worst double take out presuming Superman has not already, been taken out.

Okay let's go with "endures long enough to fly up" before any of the other attacks then

Jay's shots are never compared to dwarf stars or the mass of a small moon or whatever all nonsense, at least that I can remember (before you dip to the Thor thing, Wally is doing specific calcs to try and approximate the strength of his shots, that's not the same jazz). Also he's never done strikes that have had the effect Wally's or Zoom's have had.*

By that logic Zooms never done anything Wallys not done striking wise, despite him being so much faster than Wally. If Wally hits much harder than Jay because he's much faster, why doesn't Zoom hit much harder than Wally? Why hasn't he done anything much beyond Wally?

Or, going by their in comic explanation (which is basically "speed x acceleration = damage") all of them amount to about the same level of class 100 damage

And even if Wally hadn't hit harder, it wouldn't matter. If Jay can hurt Adam, Wally will be hitting a ridiculous number of times more than Jay would, which would mean a far, far greater hurting.

But Jay isn't really hurting Adam is the point, at least not without the build up I speak of, even going by that he continues fighting other people after dealing with Jay each time

Can Wally get in more hits of the ilk? Sure. But will the number not be lesser than it could have been with rapid fire punches? Absolutely, just by simple logic. Is the number enough to put them down before they do something? That's the issue in question here

Wally will be hitting far, far more times. It will be a superior barrage just on that basic logic.

My question is more along the lines of how many more times can I guy be hit than "everywhere all over his body?". The Flash is being drawn is a red blur whacking him all over. How much more energy blast like can it get really? At what point does the Flash stop hitting his opponent and start hitting his own fists?

I remember you dismissing the idea of Superman (the broken one) landing more hits per square inch than Odin with an energy beam on the reasonable enough grounds that there's no difference between one continuous barrage and the other

Maybe it means this showing is not great for the things that you want it to show, should be a thing to consider. If you want the parts where Jay, the slowest Flash by a lot, can hurt Black Adam, to count, they already have the logical issues that they have for applying that to someone much faster than Jay but saying the hurt won't be leagues worse.

I want those parts to count because they have an in comic explanation re- IMP. The parts where Flash has superhuman durability (and not resistance to friction / healing /other speed force shtick) should not count because they're inconsistent

Also to be honest, if you're at a point of acknowledging that by Rumbles standards, Zoom would kick the crap out of these people physically just fine, it feels like holding onto Wally West to keep going for this argument is just sort of labouring for the sake of labouring.

Zoom is certainly faster than Wally, but Wally is certainly faster than Jay, if you follow me.*

I disagree. Zoom is faster than Wally to the point he can't even see him when he moves back and forth between continents

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...-file0022a.jpg

So it's a bit too much since for a brick to endure given the speed disparity between them and Wally and the further disparity regards Zoom. But with Wally alone, the speed disparity isn't so huge as to not endure the time it would take to build up class 100 hurting punches

The issue here being Jay "hurts" them very little, to the point of not even taking them off their feet, Wally with far greater time can definitely hurt them a lot more but it's arguable that it wouldn't be enough before they get something off. Zoom with speed as to make Wally look like a statue will get in so many more blows its not debatable

Hence I'm saying Wallys feats should decide it wherein I'm arguing stuff like the human race thing where Jonn was still with difficulty able to read his thoughts as he entered the speed force, or Final Crisis when Superman recognized them as they were speeding by doing their FTL across world/time run (but not actively reacting) suggest the speed gap isn't as massive as that they can do continent wide run ups infinitely to punch their opponents.

I'm saying while they will no doubt get in plenty of blows, the durability of the class 100 combined with the need to build up speed, will reduce the number to something that shouldn't be enough to put them down before they take to the skies. So again if Wallys feats are so much better that this build up time shouldn't matter, I'd like to see them

[Pendaran]

This is Wonder Woman, commenting on her victory:

https://imgur.com/a/33wwH

If Wonder Woman herself is noting that her win came down to being the one who could hold her breath longer (though either her or a white martian needing to hold their breath in space is pretty dorkballs when they can otherwise fly just fine unshielded through its vacuum, but this was an odd time for things like that), then Primaid did more or less okay for herself, frankly.

We only see one other image of that fight, and then later in the comic, we get that, you talk like she one shot her. That is not the way this comic treats it.

[The Dork Knight]

Relevant scans to follow:

https://imgur.com/a/CRohw

she says "ukk" and falls back

Here is the next page, she is all of rubbing at her chin while upright:

https://imgur.com/a/JiLQc

It's not much more than she did to Superman by smashing into him. And if you're going to seize on that to run with "then they're weaker than Superman!", she was still strong enough to smash him down out of the sky, which is again fine, compare to trying "actually they suck.

If Superman can take out a white Martian even briefly with all of one (rather casual) hit and ( you can even see stars being drawn) that doesn't speak to them being on the same level as Superman as Wally claimed. Kinda sounds like Hyperbole

Then there's J'onn taking out a whole bunch of them later fairly easily

[The Dork Knight]

Just a quick note about Wally's punching power. Dude knocked out Mongul before the IMP ever became a thing (this would be Flash 102 and JLA 3, notice the time disparity as far as writing).

The Mongul of the time wasn't even pre DoS Superman level

To elaborate, his first post crisis appearance had him fight a Superman that had passed out after weeks without air (Byrne era couldn't breathe in space) in space, then (still explicitly weakened) taken part in a Gladiator contest, which he won. He then nearly beats a fresh Mongul before finally losing. Shortly after in the same issue while it's explicitly noted he's not in peak condition, he straight up beats Mongul. Later in the same story arc the guy he beat in the Gladiatorial tournament final beats Mongul. Throughout Mongul is portrayed as below Superman and the theme continues through much of post crisis ( he later beats the Gladiatorial tournament guy again)

Also, his fight with Zolomon, they each were dishing out some IMP'ish (although technically not described as such) type damage, knocking each other across large sections of earth with each punch. And then there was this fight here. Notice the shock wave (which is very reminiscent of some class 100 fights I can call to mind)...

This is again very low end class 100 level if even that. Superman and Doomsday did more damage in their first fight

If one doesn't grant speed feats on the basis of performances against other people why is strength being handwaved? Especially when in almost all cases the strength is only enough to "hurt" not KO

[The Arbiter]

I did not say Diana one shot Primaid. I said she beat her 1v1 in space.

I'm not arguing White Martians are not tough. More like I'm arguing that they do not equal Manhunter even remotely in presentation. And that is ok, they aren't even the same species, we probably shouldn't hand wave them class 100 brick stuff on the basis of them having "martian" in their name.

Put another way, if you really feel a White Martian = J'onn, how could the Diana/Primaid space fight be anything but PIS? Do you think Diana could beat Manhunter 1v1 up in orbit given his wide assortment of feats and powers? Or would he have to effectively forget that he can phase and use TP for any sort of slugfest to matter?

Again with Superman knocking Primaid down with one shot and having her literally rubbing her jaw and having little stars drawn flashing before her eyes, do you think that particularly speaks to stats parity with Manhunter? I mean, moments before that scene, she dove into superman and slammed him into the ground with a double fisted charge and he seemed better off then she did from the one back hand.

And since you didn't answer my question, ill ask again: Do you think given Dork Knights scans in this thread, Superman would be as bad off as Zum if he took the same punch? Better off?

Do you think Aquaman could drop Manhunter with TP like Zum?

[The Dork Knight]

OK. Some examples of Wally vs class 100 types

A possessed bloodlusted Wally hits Wonder woman several times (I doubt it was millions like the hyperbolic claim). Diana keeps getting back up

https://s14.postimg.org/spso58q8x/image.jpg
https://s14.postimg.org/otfc99cz5/image.jpg
https://s14.postimg.org/v74fcipkx/image.jpg

Other examples are against Superboy Prime which are less...usable

Similarly Zoom unloading on Superman doesn't achieve much in SCW

[The Arbiter]

And lastly, sure Protex proclaims that his powers are weird because he's closer to heat/magma whatever. Not disagreeing.

But again that doesn't help the argument that they should be hand waved Manhunter stuff. He's been lit on fire (tower of babel) and done way better. Or been in hot energy blasts and been ok.

Even dudes with lighters and matches were dropping White Martians in space suits iirc

[Pendaran]

To repeat an earlier point that you might have missed, Jay Garrick doesn't even floor Black Adam with one sided blitzes. Fights 1 and 2

https://s9.postimg.org/nlfxo3a0v/RCO012.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...m+vs+jsa+3.jpg

Adam stays standing as a red blur wails on him from all sides. If he can't even take him off his feet like that, "hurting" here does not seem to amount to much. The argument could be made I suppose that Adam looks like he is falling over (though we don't actually see it) with the first punch with a run up, which only proves my point re- run ups are needed to really affect the class 100 crowd

If Jay can "hurt" a class 100 only so much (and I'll get to Wallys examples further below) with extended blitzes then it would seem the class 100 in question will require a LOT more blows to go down than you envisage

There's hurting and "hurting" is what I'm saying.

Your argument is reading a point of semantics. If they are visibly hurt by these attacks, which they are, even according to you, and you feel that them doing so is valid, which you keep wanting to say, then someone who is orders of magnitude faster than Jay will indeed, exactly, do a lot more blows, and you keep ignoring that to keep bringing up Jay vs Adam anyway.

Okay, let's try this. Is Wally West vastly more fast than Jay Garrick? Yes or no. Should he not then using that speed to full capacity land far more blows than Jay ever could? Yes or no again.

If yes to both, why would he not do far more damage?

The Human race has Jonn specifically reading /making out his thoughts as he enters the speed force and goes his fastest in that sequence before the speed lend stuff. J'onn has difficulty yes but this is the only time in the story Wally runs so fast that he nearly loses himself in the speed force. I'm not sure that's the greatest example to use is what I'm saying

It's again, Wally not even going full tilt past lightspeed is the point, he doesn't go past lightspeed until he does enter the speedforce. In the human race is what he can do while for large chunks staying out of ftl, something like continent windups while instead letting himself do that should be nothing.

He has someone else controlling his body I grant you but there seems little reason to believe he was less competent than usual when he does up the entire JSA line up better than he would in subsequent encounters, including against a heavyweight like Dr Fate

He's got a tumor and he's/the dude controlling his body is not in their right mind. He did them up pretty well in Black Reign again really.

Also, relevant to my own points about "Jay manages a few hits then gets punched" that you're now glossing over, that other scan from the impacts, your own scan is Jay hitting Adam basically five times as far as actual impacts, then getting punched. As I noted and you rejected earlier in this thread, the speed gap between Adam and Jay is not all that big, holding onto the times Jay lands a bunch of shots instead of fewer and gets tagged. You are now trying to have it both ways.

Either way, be it in some circling whir of punches, or a few shots, Jay has hurt Adam to the point of causing him visible pain or even getting that "ow, I am feeling this" style spit of blood as his head gets knocked around. His shots on Adam, register hurt. Wally is ridiculously faster than Jay. When you say "it will take piles and piles of shots", there is a reason a variety of people are replying "yes, exactly, and since Wally is insanely faster than Jay Garrick, he will get in piles and piles of shots compared to Jay".

But Jay doesn't do much is the point here. Yes Wally will get in more hits but much better? What's this based on?

He doesn't have to do anything more than show he hurts them. Which he does. The person far faster than him hitting at least as hard many, many more times would then have a far greater effect, that's just "if one guy doing a thing enough times gets a result, a different guy hitting at least as hard, hitting so many more times would get a far greater result." You're basically straight up saying that just because Jay can hurt these sorts with his attacks, Wally landing far many more attacks, that are at least as powerful, would not have an even greater impact. That's not how anything works.

Your example with Jay, and continuing to hold onto it, is you, arguing with yourself, over and over. All you are doing is showing that the least fast Flash by leagues can hurt them with a bunch of fast punches. Normally someone would then say from that "if this is what the least powerful of them can do, how much greater an effect should the fastest and most powerful of them be capable of by comparison?" And you never actually acknowledge this, despite you being the one to bring this into play.

Again, if Wally is orders of magnitude faster than Jay Garrick, how will he not hit so many more times than Jay could? And if all of a Jay barrage does what it does, why would one from Wally, consisting of so many more hits, not do far more?

Flying up has never been "leaving the arena". And in case they'd not need to leave the arena at all but even if they did they'd just return under their own power

If you leave under your own volition, you left and that's it, that's a loss. You are otherwise arguing the will fly up at speeds so fast that it would not be more molasses movement to the Flash during which he will keep hitting them while they try, and while doing so perfectly time a thunderclap to go off. If you start talking about their ftl travel times, once again, they have to think to do it.

Oh sure they're getting punched as they're leaving but it's a relatively easy thing to thunderclap as they're flying up, yes it will be coming at the speed of molasses relative to Flash, it's still another issue to be dealt with.

If it's happening at the speed of molasses to the Flash, then he'd just phase through it. This is again rolling with that they're not taken out before this is even a thing.

Alternatively they clap on the ground and hit the boosters immediately after. The flight upwards being well faster than the spread of the wave, but also buying them a little more time to do their thing

If they clap on the ground, given that they are going at the speed of molasses, what stops the Flash from just knocking their hand or foot awry from doing so?

By that logic Zooms never done anything Wallys not done striking wise, despite him being so much faster than Wally. If Wally hits much harder than Jay because he's much faster, why doesn't Zoom hit much harder than Wally? Why hasn't he done anything much beyond Wally?

My problem with this is that in the first place we've seen Wally hit much harder than Jay, boil down to things that require setting stuff that we know about how powerful these people are and what they've shown they can do, even when underperforming, completely aside.

So, two part answer: One it frankly a bit of a thing that Zoom should hit harder than Wally, but even within that we see that Zoom is capable of IMP style stuff. Two, we have seen Wally hit harder than Jay has shown himself to hit, both in terms of force noted and the result of said impacts.

Or, going by their in comic explanation (which is basically "speed x acceleration = damage") all of them amount to about the same level of class 100 damage

Then you are again arguing not with anyone in this thread but yourself.

If they all hit as hard, why would people not just hitting as hard as Jay but far many more times not do far more damage by doing so?

But Jay isn't really hurting Adam is the point, at least not without the build up I speak of, even going by that he continues fighting other people after dealing with Jay each time

It is exactly the point, over and over. Also, to again take your claims at face value, Jay needed nothing like "continent wide running" for that "build up", and again, he did the hurt he did.

Wally then would basically need little to no time for "hurt bricks" buildup at all by that standard and once again, he's ridiculously faster than Jay

[Pendaran]

post continued:

You keep trying to dismiss this, and certainly you have to, because basically your posts boil down to little more than "I am proving in spite of myself that Wally should do ridiculously better in fights with bricks than I want him to, by the standard of my own logic, citing the effects a guy much less fast than him can manage."

Can Wally get in more hits of the ilk? Sure. But will the number not be lesser than it could have been with rapid fire punches? Absolutely, just by simple logic.

Even Jay hitting all of five times, and there are times when Jay has hit Adam the once that have managed to get a register of pain or knock him a bit back. Wally will get in a far greater amount of hits of the ilk by simple fact of the gigantic speed gap between him and Jay. It's not like Jay and Adam fought across a continent as far as any of this "wind up", so as far as what you were previously holding onto even for that, it goes out the window, because you keep holding onto this fight like it means anything instead of you, proving yourself wrong.

You're talking about simple logic, but there's no simpler logic than "the ridiculously faster guy will do a thing a ridiculously faster amount of times" If Jay can hurt or draw blood, and all you can do is semantic that to "hurt", why would Wally at minimum not mess people up so bad that even saying they endure to do something, it will be done in that much more of an impaired and easy to counter way. Again, none of these people are Thanos, they have no auto target effects to do that weakness exploit and require only thinking.

And again, that's spotting them "they will get to act", which by your own standards for what you keep posting up, seems really dubious.

My question is more along the lines of how many more times can I guy be hit than "everywhere all over his body?". The Flash is being drawn is a red blur whacking him all over. How much more energy blast like can it get really? At what point does the Flash stop hitting his opponent and start hitting his own fists?

The point of never, because that would require him to be incompetent with his own powers. This new argument is bizarre. The Flash could just keep punching the guy in the face quite frankly, and nothing prevents him from doing so except, you know, the story deciding he doesn't. That seems to be your problem here. You've basically making an argument for that the Flash should in fact be subject to PIS.

To ask this under board standards. Why can't the Flash instead just punch the guy in the face over and over? Or the groin if you prefer. Or mix it up with the face and groin. What about the Flash's power set suggests that he couldn't choose to do that? If all you have is "despite that he could, in comics he doesn't, so he won't", that's not how this place works.

I remember you dismissing the idea of Superman (the broken one) landing more hits per square inch than Odin with an energy beam on the reasonable enough grounds that there's no difference between one continuous barrage and the other

I dismissed it on the concept of landing more square hits per inch would not matter, because it will not do more overall damage than a continuous beam from Odin. Odin didn't hit Thanos fifty zillion times. He hit him with one continuous beam that Thanos waded through for a relatively extended period of damage. The extended period of damage was in that case "engulfed by energy beam". Given Superman as relative to Odin, the amount of hurt he could do with a blitz should not take out Thanos faster than being continuously zapped by Odin would. Odin didn't barrage anything, it was a single prolonged effect. This is not applicable to anything being discussed here, except again, to make you argue against yourself.

If Wally will hit more times than Jay, and the damage they are doing is based on how hard they hit and how many times they hit, how will Wally not do more damage? Considerably more damage?

I want those parts to count because they have an in comic explanation re- IMP. The parts where Flash has superhuman durability (and not resistance to friction / healing /other speed force shtick) should not count because they're inconsistent

If you want those parts to count, then you are constantly arguing against yourself every time you claim they do. The other parts not counting don't help you get out of that.

I disagree. Zoom is faster than Wally to the point he can't even see him when he moves back and forth between continents

And Wally is faster than Jay to the point that he repeatedly does all kinds of things Jay finds comparatively impossible, along with, far more pertinently, having speed feats that exist well beyond Jay's best.

At this point you're now having to default to argue that the speed gap between Wally West and Jay Garrick isn't gigantic.

And it reinforces that one of the growing problems with this thread is you'll do stuff like "see these durability feats? They shouldn't be that hurt". By that standard, trying to argue that the speed gap between Wally and Jay isn't huge would basically involve "the only things that count are these direct encounters". When is that how things work here?

But with Wally alone, the speed disparity isn't so huge

Based on what that doesn't involve Wally's speed feats as compared to that of Jay Garrick.

The issue here being Jay "hurts" them very little, to the point of not even taking them off their feet

In the exact fight you are holding onto endlessly, Jay drew blood with that whirl he did and before that with a single punch knocked Adam out of a flying charge he was tearing the city up with, Adam registering pain from his having done so. With another single punch, he visibly shoved Adam back from him. That your new thing is putting quotations around hurt doesn't make this better.

And the issue then is, as it continues to be, if that's what Jay can do, Wally, who is so much faster...

Hence I'm saying Wallys feats should decide it wherein I'm arguing stuff like the human race thing where Jonn was still with difficulty able to read his thoughts as he entered the speed force

He's not even especially going lightspeed before he does that. And even then, J'onn's actual words are "his thoughts are changing faster than I can read". Unless you're talking about a different part in that arc, that is not what you are saying happened. There's a difference between "I can still read his thoughts, it's just hard" and "I can't read his thoughts so I'm going to guess at what he's trying to do." And that's not even Flash going full tilt.

https://imgur.com/a/yx9sO

Like several other things, you are putting more weight on something than it can bear.

or Final Crisis when Superman recognized them as they were speeding by doing their FTL across world/time run (but not actively reacting)

Taking anything from Final Crisis to mean much of anything is extremely dubious. You're also now advancing that Superman is ftl.

I'm saying while they will no doubt get in plenty of blows, the durability of the class 100 combined with the need to build up speed, will reduce the number to something that shouldn't be enough to put them down before they take to the skies.

Given how little speed Jay needs to build up, according to the showings you read being this way, what you are saying makes no sense. Wally will hit so many more times by your own standards.

So again if Wallys feats are so much better that this build up time shouldn't matter, I'd like to see them

Jay's "build up" is all of "a fight across a chunk of a city". Wally, and now we're definitely keeping it to your own examples, can go so fast without even fully hitting lightspeed that the Martian Manhunter can't read his thoughts anymore for how fast they are going. The time Wally takes to "build up" from the relevant perspectives of the people he is fighting is going to be comparatively miniscule.

Unless you're now arguing that Jay is more powerful than Wally such that he needs less "build up", and again, that's at all acknowledging this concept is a thing.

[Pendaran]

If Superman can take out a white Martian even briefly with all of one (rather casual) hit and ( you can even see stars being drawn) that doesn't speak to them being on the same level as Superman as Wally claimed. Kinda sounds like Hyperbole

Then there's J'onn taking out a whole bunch of them later fairly easily

She's upright on the next page, rubbing at her chin.

If you're arguing they're not as powerful as Superman, hey sure. If you're arguing they weren't being treated as class 100 types that's not what the comic is showing considering even things like her own smash of Superman.

By your logic, Superman is so impacted by her smashing into him he's not capable for a moment of even replying to Batman as he crashes down to the Earth. If you want to play up the one, then you're stuck with the other.

[Pendaran]

And lastly, sure Protex proclaims that his powers are weird because he's closer to heat/magma whatever. Not disagreeing.

But again that doesn't help the argument that they should be hand waved Manhunter stuff. He's been lit on fire (tower of babel) and done way better. Or been in hot energy blasts and been ok.

Even dudes with lighters and matches were dropping White Martians in space suits iirc

If Protex's powers are crapping out, then why does Superman doing him up then matter for claiming anything about how tough they aren't, is the point I am looking for you to answer.

[Pendaran]

This is again very low end class 100 level if even that. Superman and Doomsday did more damage in their first fight

If one doesn't grant speed feats on the basis of performances against other people why is strength being handwaved? Especially when in almost all cases the strength is only enough to "hurt" not KO

Because it's a specific thing that these speedsters do with their powers to hit harder and our only basis for is them hitting people. Also this is a remarkable thing for you to say when you keep wanting to say you don't find them "hurting" Adam and the like to be invalid.

This is your problem for doing so. You have put yourself in a place where all you can do is contradict yourself over and over and revisit your statements to now put quotation marks around some of your own words to try and downplay them.

You're at a point of semantics. "Just because they show pain, or were knocked around, or had blood drawn from them, it doesn't count as really hurting them". How does that work as a thing to say? There's no seeming way it does.

Once again, if you were but to say "based on the durability feats of the people involved, they shouldn't be hurt", this would be an actual consistent argument with some logic behind it. Instead we're stuck with this mess.

It's okay to deal in absolutes. It's not just for Sith. Don't be afraid of Obi Wan getting all judgemental on you for doing so. This board is rife and justly so with "based on this, the person should not have felt anything", you seem to be stuck by not wanting to say that a thing that happened in comics is invalid even though it happened.

The entire fulcrum of the board is no, you can totally try to say that about a thing that happened, then back it up.

I'd disagree, but I'd certainly see it as a reasoned thing. This is instead you, putting up showings that mean nothing but you arguing with yourself, trying to downplay the difference between Wally and Jay, and saying that somehow, the simple logic of "guy who hits as hard as other guy hitting more than other guy will do more damage than other guy." is non applicable